M36- badly underpowered?

Title pretty much says it all...

In real life the 90mm M3 gun on the M36 was vastly superior in AP qualities to the German 75mm Kwk L/42 found on the Panther (source: dem internetz, also wikipedia).

In game, the role of the M36 is that of a pure TD at the apex of the US tech tree. The panther is a mixed role tank at the apex of the German trees. However, the panther has significantly heavier armor and the 75mm gun has decent effect versus infantry.

While I understand that the game isn't balanced around real life, I don't get why the M36 is such a complete PoS. It's a very expensive tank that is frankly awful at its role. Give that the M36 and the Panther occupy relatively the same place at the apex of their tech trees, and that both are about the same price, I would expect that M36 to at LEAST be as good in an anti-tank role as the panther. Alas, the M36 struggles to penetrate the frontal armor of the panther at extremely close range, which given the 90mm M3 is a sick joke, unless they are literally firing rubber shells out of the gun.

TLR- Fix the M36 so it's competitive v German late armor.

I use armor pen bulletins for Jacksons and so far my M36 never failed to penetrate. To successfully engage panther you need 2 jacksons .
I'm don't think its UP.

Only thing it needs is a base penetration buff(or make the drop-off lower at max range) to help fight heavies.

And the Panther's main cannon is honestly quite terrible with its lengthy reload against the majority of light and medium vehicles and only really shines vs heavies in comparison to the T3 tanks for Ostheer. The vehicle also relies on crushing and MGs to kill infantry. The reason why the Panther does well against tanks in the AT is due to its armour and speed not because of its cannon.

I wouldn't say it's underpowered, but it's poorly designed. The M36 against Medium Tanks is extremely good, but against Heavy Tanks it's not so good. High damage and average Penetration make for a very RNG-based unit. It's also not that expensive, it's the same cost as a Panzer IV, in a direct fight RNG determines the winner.

Personally I feel that giving it a gun more like the Panther's will help balance it against Medium and Heavy tanks alike. Normal damage and high penetration. Keep in mind it's still have HVAP to buff penetration even further.

IMO, HVAP ammo should be a vet 0 ability for USF AT guns and also Jacksons. That would go a long way to making them better at countering heavy armour - but still at a cost. Particularly in the long haul when attrition starts taking its toll and you have fresh units to replace some losses.

The Jackson is great, what are you talking about? Their a TD they fight from a distance with support in front. Put two of these bad boys GG axis armour, this TD has won so many games for me Its just fine as it is. BISH PLZ

I wouldn't say it's underpowered, but it's poorly designed. The M36 against Medium Tanks is extremely good, but against Heavy Tanks it's not so good. High damage and average Penetration make for a very RNG-based unit. It's also not that expensive, it's the same cost as a Panzer IV, in a direct fight RNG determines the winner.

Personally I feel that giving it a gun more like the Panther's will help balance it against Medium and Heavy tanks alike. Normal damage and high penetration. Keep in mind it's still have HVAP to buff penetration even further.

Don't forget it's slow reload that gives it lower DPS than an SU85 or JP4. Also it's lackluster accuracy and its large target size. Really the Jackson has less going for it than other true Medium TDs. It's really overhyped.

Suggestion for people thinking Jacks being suck,

L2P harder, you just used it wrong.

Its veterancy gives it absolutely no survivabitity, no speed armor or acceleration.

This makes it scale really really poorly when the tanks its fighting get all of these things from their vet. Raw damage is nice but a vet 3 jackson can still get zoned out by infantry and outmanuevered by faster heavy tanks who get blitz and "manuever the battlefield with ease" attribute which limits its potential. Its never going to be able to chase down and kill anything with its current manueverability

I think this could be helped by removing all the crazy reload and pen bonuses and making it faster at vet 2. Actually being able to keep up with and shoot at targets is more important

m36 is awesome imo

I like the unit as it is and I would not change anything in it. Of course it could use armour buff but then it would have to be priced on panther level and that will take all the AT firepower the us have so it's much better as it is. You just need a critical mass of 2 in 1v1. In games with more players you just need to spam it, seriously jackson spam + p47 is a valid usa tactic in 3v3 and 4v4 and it almost always works (if there are at least 2 soviets in the team). Both german factions rely on heavy armour so denaying it by producing jacksons to the popcap and even further is the solution as long as you keep them together.

And its vet is well designed, it is bouild for the canon not manuverability, it's cheap enough to replace in a second if you loose one of 4-5 you have and if you want your vet to get ap rounds you can just jum out of it and get the crew to the new one.

and that will take all the AT firepower the us have so it's much better as it is.

I think its kind of distressing that the Jackson is the only USF stock AT option that can even think of scratching anything bigger than a panzer IV. Unfortunately, enemy tanks outrun it, especially with blitz, which does not bode well with it being one of the most fragile tanks in the game...

More damage for being disadvantaged in nearly everything else but a turret isnt exactly a well designed combination i would like to think...

Think of it otherwise: no other faction gets solid mobile AT that cheap. Im excluding su-85 as it lacks penetration and is even more disadvantaged by blitz ability due to lack of turret.

Think of it otherwise: no other faction gets solid mobile AT that cheap. Im excluding su-85 as it lacks penetration and is even more disadvantaged by blitz ability due to lack of turret.

Dont throw the SU-85 under the bus just yet. Su-85 has better long range penetration than the Jackson at no vet, great accuracy, the ability to spot for itself, and very fast reload with vet also make the SU-85 somewhat viable in the game.

Jackson could get more penetration, especially with HVAP rounds, but...

Soviets have the all mighty anti-all mine, which CE's can place and be easily replaced if they die compared to the m20, which is risky to place mines where needed. Actually, i would appreciate the Jackson more if USF had some sort of light mine that at least slightly slowed down the enemy...

The biggest offender for the Jackson could be its mobility, but i would think it would be its health. No other faction has to rely completely on an AT option that gets slaughtered as easily, especially in the volk schreck meta...

There would be ways to make the Jackson look better without actually touching the Jackson, but we'll have to see what Relic does to the meta...

Something that costs more usually means there is more bang for its buck, and the reality is, 10-30 fuel more on a Jackson isnt really going to stall USF's ability to make it. Its does not have that big of a degree of cheapness to be considered advantageous for its lower price.

Realistically thinking, im not expecting any changes for it, but given USF design and AT effectiveness and availability compared to the AT of every other faction, the Jackson isnt *that* great.

Give that the M36 and the Panther occupy relatively the same place at the apex of their tech trees, and that both are about the same price, I would expect that M36 to at LEAST be as good in an anti-tank role as the panther.

They are not at the same price at all by far!

Alas, the M36 struggles to penetrate the frontal armor of the panther at extremely close range

It does NOT really struggle to penetrate the frontal armor of the panther at extremely close range!

It does NOT really struggle to penetrate the frontal armor of the panther at extremely close range!

62.5% chance, not exactly a sure thing for penetration.

And what the fuck are you doing having a Jackson at close range? That's just asking to lose your 480 HP 90mm gun with paper mache surrounding it.

It does not UP, you just need to micro it. 2 Jacksons can deal with a tiger. Vet 1 ability kicks ass.

god forbid i need to micro my tank

the jackson is good but, like the SU85, map dependent and really sufferers against heavy tanks. it's bad against the VI and VI B and terrible against the tiger. it counters IVs, stugs, and pumas quite hard though.

It does not UP, you just need to micro it. 2 Jacksons can deal with a tiger. Vet 1 ability kicks ass.

Of course you need to micro it, like every single USF unit at the same time. Now I let you show me how you micro it face to a panther with the blitz ability supported by a A-move LMG/shreck push (to not say blob )

I understand the M36 cost half of the Panther price, but why would it means
-1 no escape ability (no smoke)
-2 really low penetration rate
-3 no armor
-4 0 AI power
-5 slow to move, slow to turn slow to shot
-6 no defensive veterancy abilities
-7 no shreck or pak support and only doctrinal heavy lmg support
-8 Atgun low pen rate support

for
-1 long range fire (but low pen rate)
-2 high dammage value if pen

The two high values given to the TD are completely dependent to RNG gods.

As far as I know, when I turn down half of a panther life, it can still move and retreat and use his blitz ability and repair for free.
Same amount of damage done to a M36, no more TD and Fuel/MP investment lost.

So yes, it is a good asset if you know how to micro it and have some good favor from RNG gods, but that's all and any other TD in the game is far more secure to use.