OKW, the root of most balance issues?

Economic handicaps only affect the timing of units, not their prices. An OKW panther costs the same as an Ostheer panther, but since OKW gets reduced fuel, it comes out later(later than it could be, but still much earlier than Ostheer)and the fuel is more expensive. So OKW vehicles are more or less priced around a normal price for anyone else.

Unless you think OKW gets cool things for free.

And what would be the point of a resource penalty if units are proportionately better to match the resource penalty? Seriously.

I don't entirely disagree, but you're leaving out the fact that under those circumstances USF gets capable handheld AT (Captain) and a mobile reinforce point (Major), just for teching.

That's a bit of stretch. Bazookas are not really what I would call capable handheld AT. At least in my experience, the Captain tends to do little more than suck up pop cap that I would much rather have spent on another rifle/para squad or armour. Nevermind the fact that captain-tech in general is pretty dubious. The Lt/M20 is critical in most matches while units like the Stuart and howitzer really don't perform up to their cost.

If OKW is not overperforming, then why is it that every opponent i face has better ladder position for okw than any other faction ( and in some cases by a sizeable margin. )

Granted there may be some disparity in the ladders due to not everyone buying western fronts, however the fact is most people achieve better rankings with okw.

my ranking with USF is way better than all my other factions, is USF OP?

FFS, what is this reasoning that obers have to be better due to economic handicaps? THEY ARE A MANPOWER ONLY UNIT. THE REDUCED MUNI AND FUEL DON'T AFFECT THEM

Only if you lack intelligence to understand the implications for the faction as a whole. I thought you guys love your "asymmetric balance" argument so much over here?

Obersoldaten are a necessity in their state for OKW because of the overall faction design. Why?

A) OKW has little fuel and munition, which means they won't be able to build many tanks and stuff but will need to rely more heavily on their manpower units
B) Volksgrenadiere lose against any other starting infantry 1v1
C) Volksgrenadiere cannot be further upgraded to become better at fighting infantry, whereas Riflemen for example will dominate them even further once they are upgraded
D) OKW has no medium tanks to fight infantry. They only have some luxury tanks for late game and paper armor vehicles that can help you survive to the later stages of the game to get the proper stuff out but they will become relatively obsolete quickly once the enemy gets just a bit of AT on the field
E) OKW has no support infantry. MG34s are doctrinal and worse than any other MG, the leIG is a double priced 80mm mortar without a retreat button, and that is already it.


=> This is why OKW is relying on manpower intensive elite infantry like Obersoldaten or doctrinal alternatives like Fallschirmjägers or Panzerfüsiliers to be able to compete with the enemy infantry
=> This is why nerfs to manpower income for OKW as I have read in this thread is a completely stupid idea because it defeats the whole faction design
=> This is also why Obersoldaten need to be powerful right now and big nerfs to the unit don't make sense if the unit is only viewed singled out of the overall faction

You can say that you don't enjoy the OKW faction design which I find understandable, you can say that Relic should change the overall faction, but don't just go in and whine about every single OKW unit being overpowered as it happens in this forum all the time. If OKW as a faction was that overpowered as this forum makes you believe then OKW would not lose a single game ever.

Only if you lack intelligence to understand the implications for the faction as a whole. I thought you guys love your "asymmetric balance" argument so much over here?

Obersoldaten are a necessity in their state for OKW because of the overall faction design. Why?

A) OKW has little fuel and munition, which means they won't be able to build many tanks and stuff but will need to rely more heavily on their manpower units
B) Volksgrenadiere lose against any other starting infantry 1v1
C) Volksgrenadiere cannot be further upgraded to become better at fighting infantry, whereas Riflemen for example will dominate them even further once they are upgraded
D) OKW has no medium tanks to fight infantry. They only have some luxury tanks for late game and paper armor vehicles that can help you survive to the later stages of the game to get the proper stuff out but they will become relatively obsolete quickly once the enemy gets just a bit of AT on the field
E) OKW has no support infantry. MG34s are doctrinal and worse than any other MG, the leIG is a double priced 80mm mortar without a retreat button, and that is already it.


=> This is why OKW is relying on manpower intensive elite infantry like Obersoldaten or doctrinal alternatives like Fallschirmjägers or Panzerfüsiliers to be able to compete with the enemy infantry
=> This is why nerfs to manpower income for OKW as I have read in this thread is a completely stupid idea because it defeats the whole faction design
=> This is also why Obersoldaten need to be powerful right now and big nerfs to the unit don't make sense if the unit is only viewed singled out of the overall faction

You can say that you don't enjoy the OKW faction design which I find understandable, you can say that Relic should change the overall faction, but don't just go in and whine about every single OKW unit being overpowered as it happens in this forum all the time. If OKW as a faction was that overpowered as this forum makes you believe then OKW would not lose a single game ever.

What a load of bull. Most OKW players rush only for their KT while blobing infranty they never use other vehicles or tanks and when they do use them they mostly suicide them at the enemy. OKW has no problem with vehicles it has problem with the KT that is being rushed in 90% of the games.

my ranking with USF is way better than all my other factions, is USF OP?

I am only stating the facts as i see them.

After each game, i check my opponents rank. 100% of the time they are ranked highest with OKW. Many times they are ranked as much as 5 times higher. Now i am sure there are some inconsistencies involved probably from there being more people with Vcoh2 ranks. But the fact remains players do better with OKW ( i am not sure about USF ). I believe this largely due to OKW being more forgiving
skill wise due to OKW units being more durable.

As to your question, i cannot answer as i haven't played USF, nor have i played as OST for a couple of months. However i think OKW is more of an issue outside top 250 where people perhaps have lower micro skills, do not learn every nuance of a faction and tend to play more casually. I think OKW has more of an impact at lower skill levels because of its ability to punish opponent with easy squad wipes that are harder to achieve with other factions.

USF can also be punish opponent, but the difference is their late game is micro intensive and games tend to even out somewhat. OKW only downside is resource penalty, meaning the longer the game continues the less relevant resources become...

Note : My perspective is 1v1 as soviets for ranks between 1000 - 2500.

What a load of bull. Most OKW players rush only for their KT while blobing infranty they never use other vehicles or tanks and when they do use them they mostly suicide them at the enemy. OKW has no problem with vehicles it has problem with the KT that is being rushed in 90% of the games.

This strat simply does not work in 1vs1 . its rather difficult to get KT let alone rush it. i assume that your revering 3vs3 or 4vs4 games. in that case its completely possible for the okw to rush to a KT. but its the ostheer and the luftwaffe supply doctrine that enable them to do so.

Relic never had interest in fixing economy's in larger games. and i can still fondly remember strafe spam in coh 1 where the ami's get 80 + ammo income from the British royal engineers.

obers are completely optional for OKW right now. they get by just fine on volks blobs. obers need to be nerfed, even if their cost comes down.

obers are completely optional for OKW right now. they get by just fine on volks blobs. obers need to be nerfed, even if their cost comes down.

If you lose to an army that consists exclusively of Volksgrenadiere you must be doing something terribly wrong.

Weaker Obersoldaten for lower cost I don't see how it will change anything, it will just mean that OKW will blob even more.

My suspicion is that Obers, as a unit, would be fine with nerfs to received accuracy and long range DPS.

But this wouldn't do anything to fix the basic design problem that Relic introduced by giving OKW a T0 vehicular suppression platform, awesome T0 handheld AT, a T0 AT gun, and low teching costs--not to mention the free goodies you get for teching such as the T4 flak cannon. The Allies need to be able to compete with OKW, and IMO allowing them to compete with OKW makes Ostheer broadly unusable 1v1 (especially vs. USF).

@Crysack: I guess it depends on your definition of "capable." I have regular success with zooks against light and medium vehicles (excluding Pz4 and Panthers, the latter of which are medium in name only), generally forcing a retreat if I don't get the kill. I think they could use a slight penetration buff--relatedly, the OKW AA halftrack could probably use a slight DPS and suppression nerf--but in general they do their job getting you to midgame, where (yes) you will need a more effective AT solution.

I agree with you about popcap for officers though, it's a killer, especially if you tech the whole tree.

If you lose to an army that consists exclusively of Volksgrenadiere you must be doing something terribly wrong.

Weaker Obersoldaten for lower cost I don't see how it will change anything, it will just mean that OKW will blob even more.

you can get by just fine 4-5 volks and kubel or puma plus the starting spio.

it would have zero affect on how much they blob, it would just make the ober blobs beatable without a select few units.

obers are completely optional for OKW right now. they get by just fine on volks blobs. obers need to be nerfed, even if their cost comes down.

Im not going to waste time on the volks part. you are simply wrong. volks are the weakest starting infantry in the game that lose to everything safe builder units. and as soon as upgrades come into play its all over them as an ai unit.

Also why do obers need a nerf. you complain its an effective AI unit. but it is meant to be an AI.

my ranking with USF is way better than all my other factions, is USF OP?

No Romeo you are just a freak of nature. An aberration. A statistical anomaly....

Only if you lack intelligence to understand the implications for the faction as a whole. I thought you guys love your "asymmetric balance" argument so much over here?

Obersoldaten are a necessity in their state for OKW because of the overall faction design. Why?

A) OKW has little fuel and munition, which means they won't be able to build many tanks and stuff but will need to rely more heavily on their manpower units
B) Volksgrenadiere lose against any other starting infantry 1v1
C) Volksgrenadiere cannot be further upgraded to become better at fighting infantry, whereas Riflemen for example will dominate them even further once they are upgraded
D) OKW has no medium tanks to fight infantry. They only have some luxury tanks for late game and paper armor vehicles that can help you survive to the later stages of the game to get the proper stuff out but they will become relatively obsolete quickly once the enemy gets just a bit of AT on the field
E) OKW has no support infantry. MG34s are doctrinal and worse than any other MG, the leIG is a double priced 80mm mortar without a retreat button, and that is already it.


=> This is why OKW is relying on manpower intensive elite infantry like Obersoldaten or doctrinal alternatives like Fallschirmjägers or Panzerfüsiliers to be able to compete with the enemy infantry
=> This is why nerfs to manpower income for OKW as I have read in this thread is a completely stupid idea because it defeats the whole faction design
=> This is also why Obersoldaten need to be powerful right now and big nerfs to the unit don't make sense if the unit is only viewed singled out of the overall faction

You can say that you don't enjoy the OKW faction design which I find understandable, you can say that Relic should change the overall faction, but don't just go in and whine about every single OKW unit being overpowered as it happens in this forum all the time. If OKW as a faction was that overpowered as this forum makes you believe then OKW would not lose a single game ever.

Justifying an OP unit because you feel the faction as a whole is weak doesn't stop the unit from being OP. This is like saying THEY CAN NEVER NERF THE CALL IN META BECAUSE SOVIET TECH IS TERRIBLE!!!!

No you fix the weaknesses in other areas then you adjust the units that over-perform. Its not brain surgery...

Obers counter Infantry even vet infantry 2 to 1 and sometimes more depending on their vet, cover and RNG. Obers counter sniper. Obers counter MGs frontally 1v1. Obers counter light vehicles (M3/M20/WC51 even loaded with Rifles). If an Ober loses his LMG and the MAJOR of all units picks it up the MAJOR will be the nastiest unit on the field besides the Obers themselves. Its hilariously broken. RUN OMG ITS A MAJOR WITH THE LMG FROM THE YEAR 2040 KILLING ALL THE NAZIS ON THE BATTLEFIELD SOLO!!!! lol

RUN OMG ITS A MAJOR WITH THE LMG FROM THE YEAR 2040 KILLING ALL THE NAZIS ON THE BATTLEFIELD SOLO!!!!

This literally had me laughing out loud

RUN OMG ITS A MAJOR WITH THE LMG FROM THE YEAR 2040 KILLING ALL THE NAZIS ON THE BATTLEFIELD SOLO!!!! lol

Names Major.

Major Butthurt

Got lmg 34 for Rear echelons. Literally the most gloriously disgusting thing ive ever had the pleasure of witnessing

Got lmg 34 for Rear echelons. Literally the most gloriously amusing thing ive ever had the pleasure of witnessing

FTFY

My AT teammate managed to get 2 lmg34 for his conscripts. The ultimate lol scene in the game. Too bad I didn't save the replay to show you the number of vet 5 volks he was wiping out.

Justifying an OP unit because you feel the faction as a whole is weak doesn't stop the unit from being OP. This is like saying THEY CAN NEVER NERF THE CALL IN META BECAUSE SOVIET TECH IS TERRIBLE!!!!

No you fix the weaknesses in other areas then you adjust the units that over-perform. Its not brain surgery...

Obers counter Infantry even vet infantry 2 to 1 and sometimes more depending on their vet, cover and RNG. Obers counter sniper. Obers counter MGs frontally 1v1. Obers counter light vehicles (M3/M20/WC51 even loaded with Rifles). If an Ober loses his LMG and the MAJOR of all units picks it up the MAJOR will be the nastiest unit on the field besides the Obers themselves. Its hilariously broken. RUN OMG ITS A MAJOR WITH THE LMG FROM THE YEAR 2040 KILLING ALL THE NAZIS ON THE BATTLEFIELD SOLO!!!! lol

This will not change anything as long as there are no major changes to the overall faction design which I already said you can in my opinion rightfully complain about.

Why? Because if you nerf Obersoldaten and, as you say, buff other units of OKW in return to allow them to stay useful, people will just complain about those buffed units again. Why? Because they will perceive them to be overpowered when isolated from the overall faction design, because they will have to be overpowered to make OKW stay competitive again, it cannot work differently with a handicap economy and such limited unit variety for the only ressource that OKW is not handicapped in.

Ugh the handicapped economy thing again. Hasnt this been shown time and again as really no handicap or do we need to go over that again. Handicapped versus call in spam maybe and even then less then most people make out (not counting the base sector 100% fuel and the starting fuel price and the cheap teching and then finally the late game trade for Muni to fuel or fuel to muni)

And yes it will change things. Obers are and have been downright stupidly overpowered. They are like Shreks a no brainer 95% Guarantee to be in every game and every time perform better and get more kills then even a whole infantry blob at times.

They are far too potent. They need to be adjusted. Even if they increase other units DPS if they for example turn out to break OKW. I even like the Kappatch that simply reduced the LMG and buffed the Kar98 resulting in the same squad DPS. This made them less rapid fire sniper rifles.