OKW, the root of most balance issues?

sure...

Where did I write anything about nerfing?

Switching KT woth PZ IV is a nerf?
LMG for 90 is not a nerf since Obers will act same way after upgrade.
Stormpio with Schrecks and Volks with SMGs and Panzerfaust are nerfs?

Please, show me where I wanted to nerf something. Ijust pointed bad design features in my opinion.

I think the Soviets are the root of all 'evil'. Seriously. Because the faction as a whole is just a massive bottle of Failsauce lathered upon a pile of Failcustard, set nicely beside some Failsteak, half of the balance changes around here (here being CoH2 ^^) are to keep the Soviets alive.

Let me esplain. I hate cheesing. HATE.

I agree, soviets are pure 100% velveeta, and I hate them. Every game all I ever see are uncounterable (at least for OKW) support weapons spam. Last game I played the idiot's entire force in manpower consisted of 6 maxims, the rest ATGs, until call-ins arrived. Your only choice is to spend all of your fuel on stukas. Well, they don't work. Oh, you get kills, but you can only fire once every couple of minutes. Meanwhile all he has to do is drop engineers back on any decrewed weapons, use conscripts to top off other squads, and he's back in business as if nothing had happened. He just sits on all the points and there's nothing you can do.

Hell, I don't even see the REAL cheese, which is supposed to be multiple snipers. I just see hardcore support weapons spam 80% of the time, and the cheese flamethrowing buggies about 20% of the time.

I've gone back to playing wehr exclusively because at least I have snipers, mortars, flamethrowers, and most of all, mortar halftracks.

no offense but this is horribly wrong. the reason why rushing the cutoff works is because it almost negates the fuel and munition penalty that the OKW have, at least in the beginning of the game. the okw player vs allied player have equal resource gain since both sides have no territory, and if that continues the okw player will probably end up on top

in an even game however its pretty important for OKW to absolutely maintain control over ATLEAST one fuel and one munitions (not as important) for the entire game. losing fuel points or even multiple strategic points for an extended period of time is a HUGE blow to the timing of every OKW unit. not even just losing, but your fuel being harasses or cut off continuously can have just a bad an effect.

if you apply pressure early enough, you will delay the schwerer HQ, which in turn delays the luchs/obers, which in turn gives you more time to gain EVEN MORE map control before OKW elite units arrive. not only does it delay OKW units, but it speeds up your own teching as well. tanks might come a minute or two minutes earlier, and if the OKW player doesnt have sufficient AT, well then good game i guess.

having early munition control and maintaining it assures that the feared shrek blob will be delayed for quite awhile. 90 munitions is a pretty hefty investment. once again, not only is the OKW player losing a huge chunk of their economy, which is worse because of the penalties, but the allied player is gaining all those munitions themselves. Wether they save for BARS, molotovs, nades, etc or for late game offmaps, it still gives them an edge over an already weakened enemy.

My argument isn't that OKW doesn't need any map control at all. I just think they need less than other factions. Munitions in particular just isn't that important for them after a certain point because of obersoldaten. You even say so yourself. Every other faction has to spend either munitions or fuel to be able to compete vs infantry the way they do.

Of course if you take and hold the whole map and then steamroll your opponent with tanks before he's ready you'll win, OKW isn't THAT OP

OKW's design doesn't really make that much sense to me. They have reduced resource incomes but it doesn't seem to matter that much. A puma can arrive in about 6 minutes. A luchs can arrive on the field in about 10 minutes. A panther arrives in about 17. This is actually faster than Ostheer can field a panther. In fact if Ostheer attempts to field a panther they will probably lose.

After the first vehicle purchase however they have to wait a long time for a second vehicle as the resource penalty kicks in. This results in them having a zillion manpower to spend but no fuel to get more vehicles.

Since they have this surplus of manpower, a lot of units cost only manpower since it would be impossible to maintain their army otherwise. Obersoldaten are the biggest offender in that regard.

This makes holding territory considerably less important for OKW than other factions. That's why rushing straight for an enemy cutoff at the start of a game rather than back-capping is so effective.

That's where the big error is in my opinion. In a game that is almost entirely about capturing and holding territory, one faction doesn't actually need to capture and hold territory as badly as the others.

I am definitely not the first person to suggest that maybe instead OKW should have a manpower penalty instead of a fuel and munitions penalty. They will have fewer units, but the focus on map control will be restored and the focus on unit preservation will be higher than ever.

That a good idea !!!

Taking a page from fellow community member Exsile...

My Sentiment is that OKW leads effectively the game meta and since OKW more common play style is a mass Volks into mass Obers with maybe a lunch in between, it forces USF players to adapt to this situation and as a collateral effect make the life harder to Ostheer.

Now is the OKW blob style the only one available to have a fairly chance to win a game? no. OKW dominates the 1vs1 scene since 3 months now, and blobs weren't the unique way to win at that time.

Balance issues must take in consideration the customer game experience. For example, a couple of months ago, who would have consider the M8 as broken? The unit was exactly the same, but nobody was using that commander. Why suddenly people get to use it? 2 different causes imo:
1- The player experience translated in game as Skill has improve since 6 months, people are less dependent of the best commanders choice to win a game, so they can try other commanders with enough confidence to win.
2- The meta is now focused into blobs and counter blobs and this commander proposes something unique and extremely powerful for the USF faction.

So maybe, all our issues are about player experience. OKW is by far the easiest faction to take in hand and to play fairly well vs equal and highest skilled player.
At the opposite, USF/Ostheer the 2 most difficult to handle and will take couple of more months to regular players (like me) to masterize.
Today USF players are probably reaching their mature play style faster than OStheer. I feel it myself, I'm clearly more comfortable with the faction facing any situation.

OKW blob probably symbolizes the critical pic of OKW domination, but looking forward, I don't see any improvement for that play style that wouldn't come from a patch. It is the first faction to reach his top because it is also the easier. But USF, when regular players will mastered as a same level their faction, has a good chance to inverse the situation and become leader.

Ostheer will probably need some improvement tweaks in the early game and downgrade one's in the late game. Actually it is a all-in, or you survive the early game, or you die.

Sov... If it is true that game designer wanted the faction be Commander dependent... or it need a complete redesign to remove that stupidity, or nothing can be done without strongly impacting the game.

Balance issues must take in consideration the customer game experience. For example, a couple of months ago, who would have consider the M8 as broken? The unit was exactly the same, but nobody was using that commander. Why suddenly people get to use it? 2 different causes imo:
1- The player experience translated in game as Skill has improve since 6 months, people are less dependent of the best commanders choice to win a game, so they can try other commanders with enough confidence to win.
2- The meta is now focused into blobs and counter blobs and this commander proposes something unique and extremely powerful for the USF faction.

http://www.coh2.org/topic/20640/greyhound%C2%B4s-canister-shot

-We lived in a world that wipes weren't as much as now due to indirect fire, tanks or HE shells.
-HE used to suck
-AT grenades from PF and Rifles were useless.
-USF was simple not playable on 1v1 against OKW and a walkthrough against OH if you decide to cheese AA HT.

Maybe at mid-lower ranges things have change, but at top high end i haven't seen too much evolution. Blobbing doesn't neccesarily means bunching all your units together.
You can push on a massive group spread out, using cover, moving injured troops backwards but still fighting etc - to overwhelm a inferior mp force on a sector and them just keep steamrolling or retreat knowing that you have won the mp war.
________________________

OP, it's simple. You add 2 more variables on the equation and the exponential issues are meant to rise up as combination of factors increase.
-.-.-.-.-
WFA as a whole brought the blob issues: "cheap" units with high DPS (including AT dps Volks shrecks) or cost effective mp infantry (1919 + Obers) with a retreat point in the front including healing and reinforce.
If you blob as SU or OH you go back to your base giving up territory.

You can punish it. But when you can't, it's just further increasing the snowball effect.
-.-.-.-.-
USF + OKW are broken on 3v3+. One is useless, the other too useful.
-.-.-.-.-
People praise OH for it's conventional tech tree and options. Some people hate SU because you have to cheese to win because stock units are lackluster and you have access to half of it. Well, OKW is "cheese" on itself by design. You don't cheese with doctrinal units, you do it with your stock units.


Conclusion:
Nope. OKW is not the root of the problem. It's a matter of constant not solved problems which increase due to the introduction on new variables.
When you slowly tackle down big issues, then smaller things starts to come to awareness. If everything was fine i'm expecting MORE Su76, M5, M3 HT, USF MHT, FHT, Mechanized, Irregulars, IR HT, etc threads.

Let's say you somehow fix Raketenwerfer, Volks shreck, Obers, OH early game n USF late game, etc but you add new commanders on the rotation shop.

Ex:
-Assault PG are FOTM, the offmap bomber can be casted on the USF base 1 shotting it
-USF gets Pershing which is an IS2 on steroids. On top of that Calliope which for some reason can use it's main gun.
-SU gets the No retreat no surrender commander. You can't retreat unless you use a commisar ability. This leads to cheese strats. Soviet industry release levels.
-OKW gets Koningskubel, KCH, Flak and zombie Volks bunkers.

Then you just jump from one problem into another.

Another example without adding new units/commanders is overbuff of things. Think of Katyushka patch.

http://www.coh2.org/topic/20640/greyhound%C2%B4s-canister-shot

-We lived in a world that wipes weren't as much as now due to indirect fire, tanks or HE shells.
-HE used to suck
-AT grenades from PF and Rifles were useless.
-USF was simple not playable on 1v1 against OKW and a walkthrough against OH if you decide to cheese AA HT.

Maybe at mid-lower ranges things have change, but at top high end i haven't seen too much evolution. Blobbing doesn't neccesarily means bunching all your units together.
You can push on a massive group spread out, using cover, moving injured troops backwards but still fighting etc - to overwhelm a inferior mp force on a sector and them just keep steamrolling or retreat knowing that you have won the mp war.

If you like that much cheese, I can send you some from my country. Why every SU strat would be cheese, have you read the definition of "Cheesy strat" recently? Because what you describe, or units you spell aren't cheesy at all.
Don't fall into that fashion to try to discredit everything you don't like simply to no argue on it.

Or maybe you have difficulties with definition. Blob isn't equal to use a large amount of a same unit spread in cover and flanking in a global push. A blob is using a multitude of units, not necessarily the same one, in a unique group and moving it as a death ball, you compensate the vulnerability of not taking care of game mechanisms by the number of units concentrated in the same point doing the same movement and actions and his potential fire power.

Now, your thread from July didn't reach a complete page on that forum, it shows how people care about it at that time. Everybody was using (after buying) the rifle company. Myself I found the reco commander useless at that time and today it is in my 1vs1 and 2vs2 commander pool and I'm using it, having great fun with.

Now you say more or less the OKW brought those issue but you try to hide it behind the WFA expension. I'm not really sure USF brought that much of game change for the Ostheer faction. Actually it only requires some minor tweaks to make the matchup completely balanced.

OKW has few very specific issues:

- The Volks by themselves arent OP. The stupid amount of XP they get once upgraded with a Shcrek is the reason for them rushing to Vet5 by 15-20 mins, and then becoming invincible blobs of cheap destruction vs ALL UNITS USF has i.e. Infantry, Light and Med Armor. Try and play with Volks without Schrek upgrade and not only will they take forever to Vet up, but then without the Vet bonuses they suck, hard. [So: Reduce the absurd XP gain Volks get with Schreks and the problem is mitigated. As its the Vet bonuses that make them absurd - and getting to Vet 5 is currently a cakewalk]

- There is a great thread on the long range efficacy of panzerschrek. However, if that is nerfed along with the above change to Volks Vetting, the OKW desperately need the Raken buffed, oh so slightly, theyre not as bad as people make them out to be (Id say a slightly wider arc and slightly quicker reload).

- Obers with LMG are absurdly good. For a MP only unit, they volley off 2-3 squad members inside first burst. Either their LMG upgrade needs to be purchased AND/OR long range damage needs a nerf.

- I cant say about Soviets, but USF has no way to counter Panther/Tiger without using the Airborne Strafe. This cant be acceptable that a single commander's ultimate power is the ONLY viable counter v/s Heavy OKW Armor. (This problem is shared with OSTH and is more about USF's lack of Heavy Armor counter.)

- The penetration of the Flak Truck needs a nerf vs Medium Armor, Period. It punches through Sherman like it punches through Riflemen. Absurd. Once its put down, that region of the map is a done deal. Leading to the final point.

Finally, Overall as Romeo puts its, its far too easy for a OKW to sit around the 3-4 territories protected by his mobile trucks, and churn out Volks+Pschreks, Obers, which frankly by themselves can easily win games, but then ofcourse hes just waiting for the God Tanks to arrive. Which is why you see far too often 'OKW comebacks'. There is no 'comeback', its either a super early Luch or Panther that once it hits the field, just flips the game on its head amplified by the Volks+Ober blobs.

OKW needs nerf, with a hammer.

Hit the nail on the head.
The faction might work in 1v1's but even in 2v2's and up I see the "OKW come back" its an almost gg as soon as the early pnzr II or panther hits the field. The vet on the volks lets OKW hold onto more manpower as they wait to gain more fuel to get god tanks or field more obers (that can take on 2-3 squads by themselves). The reketen could surely use a buff as well as maybe make the IR halftrack more useful or something. I dont want the OKW to be a useless faction, I just want them to have the same requirements for better play from players.


While a man power adjustment would be a smart idea, I feel like the problem lies within the units themselves, The vet on them is simply to powerful and easy to obtain and keep the unit preservation at its lowest priority for OKW players as their units soak up boatloads of damage.
Adding a few more support teams to the faction may be a better idea for the faction, maybe making the kubal slower but make it only cost man power could fix this. Putting the kubal as a normal MG unit could help the faction a lot against USF blobs while the nerf to its speed would allow the allies to counter it but it would still be more mobile than a normal mg.

Adjusting the FlakHQ would also make the game a little more tolerable, The base structure is oftentimes built very far forward and allows the OKW faction to lock down a point for over half of the game span. Often times they are left around Victory points simply giving the axis faction in team games a advantage on map control. Their large range coupled with their high health makes the base structure hard to take down even with an AT gun.

The faction has no downsides besides the fuel decrease and lack of early AT solutions. They have almost no holes in team games as the Wehr play can simply feed fuel via luff supply doc neglecting any of the cons of the faction

OKW is definitely the root of the balance issue. This faction by far the easiest to play/master and requires less micro intensive skills. The blobs alone makes this faction almost unbeatable. Yes you can have blob counters, the only problem is that it leaves a wide gap in your army for KT, Panthers, & Doctrinal infantry (Falls).

What makes no sense to me is how can "resource starved" 1944 German army can field 5-6 man squads, equip shreks on all low quality infantry, and unleash anti tank vehicles before Osth (Panther & Puma).

OKW hands down the strongest army in the game, OKW hands down have more variety game play, OKW alone have the best cost efficient units, and strongest AT capability than all other nations.

My argument isn't that OKW doesn't need any map control at all. I just think they need less than other factions. Munitions in particular just isn't that important for them after a certain point because of obersoldaten. You even say so yourself. Every other faction has to spend either munitions or fuel to be able to compete vs infantry the way they do.

Of course if you take and hold the whole map and then steamroll your opponent with tanks before he's ready you'll win, OKW isn't THAT OP

okw still needs to maintain map control in the early game because, as i mentioned, losing fuel/excessive territories means your luchs/obers dont come out in a timely manner, and further sets behind the panther. munitions are very important in the early game, and you basically need to spend them on shreks at every oppurtunity. the shrek en masse is probably the most effective armor deterrent that the OKW have. the jagdpanzer severely hamstrings your teching capabilities, and the raketen has a terrible aimtime. if you want to counter m3a1s, m20s, and early medium armor, you have to rely on the shrek. otherwise you risk getting completely dominated. i only have an excess of munitions in the midlate to late game, but then again most factions do, and there are late game artillery to call in and mines to lay

im not arguing against more muni dumps for OKW, i've suggested them for awhile now. however the idea that the OKW can just hole up in a small sector of the map while you cap the rest and still win most of the time, is wrong. in most maps the munitions and fuel points are fairly far apart, so if they choose to just hole up you should be able to take one of their vital points

The main issue with the OKW is the simple might of their infrantry that blobed together create a creature capable of stoping any army without any kind of vehicle support. I can even live with a 100% muni and fuel income on OKW if all units would be changed to adjust, and also the New OKW would be forced to use vehicles to gain mid game dominance beacuse of the inefectivnes of their infrantry. So far in team games my OKW enemies tend to not build any kind of vehicle beacuse they rush the KT, or JT, and the lack of vehicles really doesnt slow them down.

The main issue with the OKW is the simple might of their infrantry that blobed together create a creature capable of stoping any army without any kind of vehicle support. I can even live with a 100% muni and fuel income on OKW if all units would be changed to adjust, and also the New OKW would be forced to use vehicles to gain mid game dominance beacuse of the inefectivnes of their infrantry. So far in team games my OKW enemies tend to not build any kind of vehicle beacuse they rush the KT, or JT, and the lack of vehicles really doesnt slow them down.

OKW players would be happier with that. Expect 6 minute luchs, as current luchs rush is around 8-9 minutes in 1v1.

..but seriously, Relic would NEVER change/adjust the entire roster. This is a given.

Because of OKW shrek upgrades alone, we rarely see T-70s/stuarts or heck even T-34s have a tough time. OKW def need medium armor to have a consistent game play like all the armies.

I'd like to recommend that everyone read this first:

http://www.coh2.org/topic/27737/highfive-s-guide-on-how-to-suggest-changes

okw still needs to maintain map control in the early game because, as i mentioned, losing fuel/excessive territories means your luchs/obers dont come out in a timely manner, and further sets behind the panther. munitions are very important in the early game, and you basically need to spend them on shreks at every oppurtunity. the shrek en masse is probably the most effective armor deterrent that the OKW have. the jagdpanzer severely hamstrings your teching capabilities, and the raketen has a terrible aimtime. if you want to counter m3a1s, m20s, and early medium armor, you have to rely on the shrek. otherwise you risk getting completely dominated. i only have an excess of munitions in the midlate to late game, but then again most factions do, and there are late game artillery to call in and mines to lay

im not arguing against more muni dumps for OKW, i've suggested them for awhile now. however the idea that the OKW can just hole up in a small sector of the map while you cap the rest and still win most of the time, is wrong. in most maps the munitions and fuel points are fairly far apart, so if they choose to just hole up you should be able to take one of their vital points

I agree completely. Any changes made to OKW to tone down their strengths must also address their weaknesses, and there are plenty.

OKW is the best faction in the game

An allied player versus an OKW player of equal skill will result in the OKW player winning 9 times out of 10

Id love to see someone disagree, You simply cant

If you like that much cheese, I can send you some from my country. Why every SU strat would be cheese, have you read the definition of "Cheesy strat" recently? Because what you describe, or units you spell aren't cheesy at all.
Don't fall into that fashion to try to discredit everything you don't like simply to no argue on it.

If we fall for the strict definition, it should be a inconventional strat which is meant to take the opponent by surprise.
Since there is almost no element of surprise (you can scout enemy base in FoW n you see commander loadouts), cheese on CoH2 generally relates to any "spam" or rush of certain units which might be OP or overperforming.

Or maybe you have difficulties with definition. Blob isn't equal to use a large amount of a same unit spread in cover and flanking in a global push. A blob is using a multitude of units, not necessarily the same one, in a unique group and moving it as a death ball, you compensate the vulnerability of not taking care of game mechanisms by the number of units concentrated in the same point doing the same movement and actions and his potential fire power.

You can make use of a death ball and then spread out when engaging the enemy or when danger arrives (spread out those marines!).

Now, your thread from July didn't reach a complete page on that forum, it shows how people care about it at that time. Everybody was using (after buying) the rifle company. Myself I found the reco commander useless at that time and today it is in my 1vs1 and 2vs2 commander pool and I'm using it, having great fun with.

That shows how you don't need the approval or acknoledgement of the mayority of players to know something is gonna be OP or broken even if most people don't use it or think of using it.
I will say it again, USF was unplayable at the time, no one unlocked that commander yet and why bother with the Greyhound and it's gimmicky ability when you could rush a AA-HT faster and even compete against the Puma (if your opponent missmicro).

Now you say more or less the OKW brought those issue but you try to hide it behind the WFA expension. I'm not really sure USF brought that much of game change for the Ostheer faction. Actually it only requires some minor tweaks to make the matchup completely balanced.

USF: rifle bar blob (before nerf) or even RE spam (before volley fire nerf) use to be a thing. Once you get your upgrades from your base, major + ambulance or even the Cpt foments some kind of blob/death ball. Thing is since Zooks are garbage and OKW blob is better, you are better going for a heavy tank play were you focus on wiping squads with either Scots or HE Shermans.

Regarding OH: it mostly force a lot of players to use Mechanized Assault for Stug-E into Tigers and a fast T2 to counter the M20, AA-HT or nowadays the Greyhound. T3 can be tricky since Jackson hardcounters it. Either you wait for the Tiger or you make AWESOME use of Mgs+Paks, which on some maps, can't be use at all.

OKW is the best faction in the game

An allied player versus an OKW player of equal skill will result in the OKW player winning 9 times out of 10

Id love to see someone disagree, You simply cant

On top of that, OKW players brag in the game about how much skill they have or L2p. I play Allies just for fun and challenge, every game I play with OKW ends up boring/easy.

I do agree with Esxile and Elchino's analysis. Both of you bring up some good and interesting points. I realize the Soviets have their own mammoth set of issues, but like elchino said, the introduction of USF and OKW made balance very hard to accomplish. It seems that OKW is FOTM (the most popular) for the past couple months. THis really brought them to my attention and how unique and strong they have been/become

OKW is the best faction in the game

An allied player versus an OKW player of equal skill will result in the OKW player winning 9 times out of 10

Id love to see someone disagree, You simply cant

I do.
Game mode? Map? USF or SU?