Ostheer Teching: Inefficient vs USF?
Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13
Example of Manpower Differences (Grenades, BARs, etc can change this heavily however as Ostheer gets those via one-time munitions and integrated tech):
Soviet T2: 160MP (I think)
Soviet T3: 240MP
Ostheer T2 with Building: 320MP
Ostheer T3 with Building: 360MP
OKW Trucks(could be wrong): 200MP
USF LT/Cpt: 200MP
Major Tech: 240
Yes, USF needs to be aggressive, but given that certain maps have so many LOS blockers or the high fuels are positioned in a way that makes reinforcement and attacks difficult, a strong defense is difficult and that extra MP spent on the tech and building delays whatever you may need next worsened that bleeding MP as Ostheer early on really sets you back if you happen to be losing Grens in either counter-pushes or capping missions connected to the general area that Ostheer would like to set-up shop at. This does however, apply to USF rifles so you can cripple them if you get lucky/ good engagements as M20s cost most MP than a 221.
While USF rifles are more expensive that some may say would delay more units, this is compensated by the fact the first three rifles are generally equal value to what Ostheer gets because pioneers need to plop down T1 (80mp) and their starting rear echelon is 40 mp less and that's 40 mp not be subtracting from your starting total of 500 mp(I think). Less effective, but USF can immediately begin capping the map unless Ostheer players do something like Assault grens -> T2 or mass pio -> T2. Some people also go double RE simply for map control while the rifles fight it out.
The lack of needing to build exacerbates the problem of certain maps where the USF can get to either critical structures or locations before Ostheer can get its real non-doctrinal combat units into the area and generally just cap sooner and advance to that early tech sooner. So it may not actually be tech, but how the maps are which allows USF to generally take and hold off Ostheer's early attacks for vital areas(you're generally not going to get a mortar this early when you need some map control/early combat power and Snipers rely long-term effect and are best after you have solidified your territory early game).
Of course I could be delusional and everyone think it's fine, but I honestly think Ostheer tech is just way too cost inefficient at a time where you generally need more units/counters to the common USF LT play which can break Ostheer on quite a few maps at the right moment if you make a single mistake, be it moving the MG at the wrong time or your units not being together at the right moment that leads into Ost being push off the map and the USF being in a position where it's forcing Ostheer to do something they are not particularly good at doing early game, attacking defended positions. LOS blockers also don't help since they can block firing(and you generally want to start off at max range) and detecting possible pushes before they can strike.
USF could be compensated by reduction in Captain and possibly Major tech if LT tech was semi-delayed or remain the same if USF general map control is taken into account.
Also I wouldn't mind if the other factions got benefit for their tech. USF gets units, OKW gets healing, repair, super flak gun. Soviets get nothing and Ostheer only gets rifle grenades and I guess faust if you didn't bother with the T1 (go Ostruppen!).
TLDR: Ostheer Teching too inefficient versus USF LT tech at a time when you need to either hold off the push or be pushed back a considerable amount and possibly be a game deciding moment. Changes needed?
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Posts: 1705
T4 fuelwise is a smaller problem.
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Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
But I dont see this in the poll..
Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1
Posts: 935
222 it cheap and if you micro it well it will do its job.
becouse it so cheep (55 ammo 30 fuel 210 mp) it has a PAPER armor so USRifles just happy to run to it.
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Posts: 412
Map adjustments would also mean the Ostheer tech system could be largely kept the same in line with Soviets, meaning Soviets would not need an adjustment (bar balancing adjustments to the heavy call in's for Ost and Sov and effectiveness of their t4).
Posts: 231
More of a problem with call-ins, but a decrease in tech costs would make T3-T4 a more attractive option.
Posts: 1702
I say the maps and the USF teching needs to be adjusted.
Something is seriously out of wack when comparing the old factions to the new ones, i mean old factions barely get anything for teching, while both USF and OKW get huge advantages for teching.
They also have simmilary out of wack infantry units that just destroy all the other factions infantry.
Compare PGs and Airborne (both of which cost around the same while PG being slightly more expensive) to maintain
Gaurds and Obersoldaten (Obers being just 70mp more expensive but gaurds requiring 75 muni upgrade)
Compare these infantry units and how the WFA faction elite infantry just smash the old factions elite infantry without any doubt. Something is wrong here IMO.
Theres alot of WFA faction stuff that needs to be nerfed to eastern front faction level IMO.
Or the other way around, i'm not sure.
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
T2 could be a tad cheaper and/or arrive a bit earlier.
Swap BP and buidling cost for either all tiers or specially for T3-T4.
For LT/Cpt i would rather see Cpt a tad fuel wise cheaper.
Posts: 74
Problem is that making ostheer tech cheaper would fuck up the soviet vs ostheer, while only balance out USF.
I say the maps and the USF teching needs to be adjusted.
You can't just adjust USF teching in a vacuum either, delaying US LT tech would put US behind against OKW as a fast M20 is critical in that matchup(must use the window before first shrek/puma to eliminate Kubel & lay mine)
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
becouse it so cheep (55 ammo 30 fuel 210 mp) it has a PAPER armor so USRifles just happy to run to it.
It murders penals, it murders shocks, it murders vet0 rifles. There is 11% for rifles to penetrate it and it takes 25 penetrating shots to kill it from the front, which on average, rounding up, means it needs at least ~220 shots fired at it frontally to get it down.
The forums were just cleaned of one big steaming pile of crap(hi sierra), no need to add more.
And it doesn't cost 30 fuel, it cost 15, but then again it would skew wehr vs sov balance and their complete inflexibility and inability to get AT if they went T1.
Now, getting T2 and T4 could be between 10 and 15 fu cheaper, 221 should be able to arrive slightly faster then M20.
Posts: 542
It is obvious that Soviets and Ostheer are in disadvantage regarding their teching structure right now in comparison to OKW and USA. While OKW has the resource disadvantage justifying a lot of the tradeoffs and specialities of the faction, USA gets free units and further freedom in their teching structure without any apparent justification (apart from desirable faction diversity and the traditional "asymmetric balance" argument; I leave it to everyone to judge for themselves how well done the balance is right now).
Ostheer teching is very expensive as you have to always unlock the previous to get to the next, and a lot of the units are currently simply not worth the price. Soviets get a rather limited unit selection by just picking one out of two each time with a more combined arms approach being rather costly as well, however if they happen to just need half of the choices this offers them more freedom so the issue is slightly smaller.
Posts: 186
Poll offers too many options when you are only allowed to vote for one of them.
It is obvious that Soviets and Ostheer are in disadvantage regarding their teching structure right now in comparison to OKW and USA. While OKW has the resource disadvantage justifying a lot of the tradeoffs and specialities of the faction, USA gets free units and further freedom in their teching structure without any apparent justification (apart from desirable faction diversity and the traditional "asymmetric balance" argument; I leave it to everyone to judge for themselves how well done the balance is right now).
Ostheer teching is very expensive as you have to always unlock the previous to get to the next, and a lot of the units are currently simply not worth the price. Soviets get a rather limited unit selection by just picking one out of two each time with a more combined arms approach being rather costly as well, however if they happen to just need half of the choices this offers them more freedom so the issue is slightly smaller.
In addition to that, Ostheer always needs to deal with horrendous build time (tech time+building time) AND additional cost of building the barracks too.
Posts: 935
It murders penals, it murders shocks, it murders vet0 rifles. There is 11% for rifles to penetrate it and it takes 25 penetrating shots to kill it from the front, which on average, rounding up, means it needs at least ~220 shots fired at it frontally to get it down.
yes you absolutly right. But there is a small problem there are always at least 3 squads and it take for them like 5-8 seconds sometimes more without lmg
Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1
It murders penals, it murders shocks, it murders vet0 rifles. There is 11% for rifles to penetrate it and it takes 25 penetrating shots to kill it from the front, which on average, rounding up, means it needs at least ~220 shots fired at it frontally to get it down.
Now, getting T2 and T4 could be between 10 and 15 fu cheaper, 221 should be able to arrive slightly faster than M20.
Tnx for the facts, and it also performs well vs Elite riflemen if you use its true potential. It's not a tank, it's an armored car. People tend to forget that.
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