Ostheer Teching: Inefficient vs USF?

The more I play against USF, the more I feel that there needs to be some changes to Ostheer's early teching system or the USF system so that Ostheer can keep up and not pray on a screw up on the opponents part or praying to the RNG gods that you get a map that favours defense. Not only is LT tech cheaper, but USF can generally expect to hold more of the map equaling higher fuel income allowing shock units like the M20 or AA HT to hit the field before the Ostheer's counter be deployed(though I find it's less gated through fuel than MP). This is worsened by the fact pioneers need to be pulled off the line to build the T2, delaying the Ostheer's T2 response further. Worse, Ostheer's paying more MP and gaining what could be considered less useful initially as the USF gets a fully armed LT with a BAR while Ostheer has rifle grenades that are useful, but generally are difficult to use in defense which is generally the position you're in for the first five to ten minutes and you generally want to hold these munitions for either fausts and the med bunker to lower the MP bleed. If Ostheer's T2 total tech didn't cost as much as your first ATG in terms of MP I think it would be easier to deal with the death push towards the cut-off, especially prone on certain maps.

Example of Manpower Differences (Grenades, BARs, etc can change this heavily however as Ostheer gets those via one-time munitions and integrated tech):

Soviet T2: 160MP (I think)
Soviet T3: 240MP

Ostheer T2 with Building: 320MP
Ostheer T3 with Building: 360MP

OKW Trucks(could be wrong): 200MP

USF LT/Cpt: 200MP
Major Tech: 240

Yes, USF needs to be aggressive, but given that certain maps have so many LOS blockers or the high fuels are positioned in a way that makes reinforcement and attacks difficult, a strong defense is difficult and that extra MP spent on the tech and building delays whatever you may need next worsened that bleeding MP as Ostheer early on really sets you back if you happen to be losing Grens in either counter-pushes or capping missions connected to the general area that Ostheer would like to set-up shop at. This does however, apply to USF rifles so you can cripple them if you get lucky/ good engagements as M20s cost most MP than a 221.

While USF rifles are more expensive that some may say would delay more units, this is compensated by the fact the first three rifles are generally equal value to what Ostheer gets because pioneers need to plop down T1 (80mp) and their starting rear echelon is 40 mp less and that's 40 mp not be subtracting from your starting total of 500 mp(I think). Less effective, but USF can immediately begin capping the map unless Ostheer players do something like Assault grens -> T2 or mass pio -> T2. Some people also go double RE simply for map control while the rifles fight it out.

The lack of needing to build exacerbates the problem of certain maps where the USF can get to either critical structures or locations before Ostheer can get its real non-doctrinal combat units into the area and generally just cap sooner and advance to that early tech sooner. So it may not actually be tech, but how the maps are which allows USF to generally take and hold off Ostheer's early attacks for vital areas(you're generally not going to get a mortar this early when you need some map control/early combat power and Snipers rely long-term effect and are best after you have solidified your territory early game).

Of course I could be delusional and everyone think it's fine, but I honestly think Ostheer tech is just way too cost inefficient at a time where you generally need more units/counters to the common USF LT play which can break Ostheer on quite a few maps at the right moment if you make a single mistake, be it moving the MG at the wrong time or your units not being together at the right moment that leads into Ost being push off the map and the USF being in a position where it's forcing Ostheer to do something they are not particularly good at doing early game, attacking defended positions. LOS blockers also don't help since they can block firing(and you generally want to start off at max range) and detecting possible pushes before they can strike.

USF could be compensated by reduction in Captain and possibly Major tech if LT tech was semi-delayed or remain the same if USF general map control is taken into account.

Also I wouldn't mind if the other factions got benefit for their tech. USF gets units, OKW gets healing, repair, super flak gun. Soviets get nothing and Ostheer only gets rifle grenades and I guess faust if you didn't bother with the T1 (go Ostruppen!).


TLDR: Ostheer Teching too inefficient versus USF LT tech at a time when you need to either hold off the push or be pushed back a considerable amount and possibly be a game deciding moment. Changes needed?

I voted that the tech fuel costs are too high, but I actually think that the only real problem is t3 and t4. If relic swapped the t3 and t4 building cost with the tech unlock cost, I think that tech-wise ostheer would be in a good spot. I terms of the fast m20, I find that having an early mg which I get to vet 1 is all it takes to counter the m20. the mg should be your second unit built (after grens) so it can accumulate vet, but mg vet1 + gren faust counter m20 well for me. This is from a 2v2 perspective and an observation from watching 1v1s.

Manpower costs t1-t2 plus building too high.Considering USA teching gives units-its a double kick .
T4 fuelwise is a smaller problem.

It is just "wise" disign of USF. Coz during WWII US infantry just ran to HMGs or Gerry and killed them ALL. And that is called "mobile". What actualy Soviets did but by the cost of great loses

Just make tech costs lower and put price into buildings. Best and easiest solution.
But I dont see this in the poll..

Against USF, if you can suppress them in early engagements you are fine, but if you don't, it's almost over for you. In open maps you can place your MGs in good positions and delay the enemy but in urban maps it's very hard. Lower the cost of T1-2. I think that's enough, because 222 it cheap and if you micro it well it will do its job.

222 it cheap and if you micro it well it will do its job.

becouse it so cheep (55 ammo 30 fuel 210 mp) it has a PAPER armor so USRifles just happy to run to it.

Would this game be fun if all the factions had the same techcost and if all factions got units when teching? Maybe. Its hard to tell.

it would be great if the 222 was a threat to the Allied infantry. And decrease DPS upclose for US rifles. Thats it

I'd probably settle for some more balanced maps (for all factions), that would help allot as you could use the MG42/Sniper more to fight manpower efficiently and have an easier time of holding some territory. As it stands, if you get pushed off too much map by the early rifles+liutenant+m20, its a real slog to take map back as Ostheer.

Map adjustments would also mean the Ostheer tech system could be largely kept the same in line with Soviets, meaning Soviets would not need an adjustment (bar balancing adjustments to the heavy call in's for Ost and Sov and effectiveness of their t4).

I think tech costs are fine for T1-T2, but the teching cost for T3-T4 seems a little high against USF especially considering the efficiency of call-ins vs USF. No reason to spend all of that fuel to tech up when saving for a Tiger, or calling in a command tank/STUG E is usually just as efficient.

More of a problem with call-ins, but a decrease in tech costs would make T3-T4 a more attractive option.

Problem is that making ostheer tech cheaper would fuck up the soviet vs ostheer, while only balance out USF.


I say the maps and the USF teching needs to be adjusted.


Something is seriously out of wack when comparing the old factions to the new ones, i mean old factions barely get anything for teching, while both USF and OKW get huge advantages for teching.

They also have simmilary out of wack infantry units that just destroy all the other factions infantry.

Compare PGs and Airborne (both of which cost around the same while PG being slightly more expensive) to maintain

Gaurds and Obersoldaten (Obers being just 70mp more expensive but gaurds requiring 75 muni upgrade)

Compare these infantry units and how the WFA faction elite infantry just smash the old factions elite infantry without any doubt. Something is wrong here IMO.

Theres alot of WFA faction stuff that needs to be nerfed to eastern front faction level IMO.

Or the other way around, i'm not sure.

Adjust tech cost, balance maps and LT/Cpt.

T2 could be a tad cheaper and/or arrive a bit earlier.
Swap BP and buidling cost for either all tiers or specially for T3-T4.
For LT/Cpt i would rather see Cpt a tad fuel wise cheaper.

Problem is that making ostheer tech cheaper would fuck up the soviet vs ostheer, while only balance out USF.


I say the maps and the USF teching needs to be adjusted.

You can't just adjust USF teching in a vacuum either, delaying US LT tech would put US behind against OKW as a fast M20 is critical in that matchup(must use the window before first shrek/puma to eliminate Kubel & lay mine)

becouse it so cheep (55 ammo 30 fuel 210 mp) it has a PAPER armor so USRifles just happy to run to it.

It murders penals, it murders shocks, it murders vet0 rifles. There is 11% for rifles to penetrate it and it takes 25 penetrating shots to kill it from the front, which on average, rounding up, means it needs at least ~220 shots fired at it frontally to get it down.
The forums were just cleaned of one big steaming pile of crap(hi sierra), no need to add more.

And it doesn't cost 30 fuel, it cost 15, but then again it would skew wehr vs sov balance and their complete inflexibility and inability to get AT if they went T1.

Now, getting T2 and T4 could be between 10 and 15 fu cheaper, 221 should be able to arrive slightly faster then M20.

Poll offers too many options when you are only allowed to vote for one of them.

It is obvious that Soviets and Ostheer are in disadvantage regarding their teching structure right now in comparison to OKW and USA. While OKW has the resource disadvantage justifying a lot of the tradeoffs and specialities of the faction, USA gets free units and further freedom in their teching structure without any apparent justification (apart from desirable faction diversity and the traditional "asymmetric balance" argument; I leave it to everyone to judge for themselves how well done the balance is right now).

Ostheer teching is very expensive as you have to always unlock the previous to get to the next, and a lot of the units are currently simply not worth the price. Soviets get a rather limited unit selection by just picking one out of two each time with a more combined arms approach being rather costly as well, however if they happen to just need half of the choices this offers them more freedom so the issue is slightly smaller.

Poll offers too many options when you are only allowed to vote for one of them.

It is obvious that Soviets and Ostheer are in disadvantage regarding their teching structure right now in comparison to OKW and USA. While OKW has the resource disadvantage justifying a lot of the tradeoffs and specialities of the faction, USA gets free units and further freedom in their teching structure without any apparent justification (apart from desirable faction diversity and the traditional "asymmetric balance" argument; I leave it to everyone to judge for themselves how well done the balance is right now).

Ostheer teching is very expensive as you have to always unlock the previous to get to the next, and a lot of the units are currently simply not worth the price. Soviets get a rather limited unit selection by just picking one out of two each time with a more combined arms approach being rather costly as well, however if they happen to just need half of the choices this offers them more freedom so the issue is slightly smaller.

In addition to that, Ostheer always needs to deal with horrendous build time (tech time+building time) AND additional cost of building the barracks too.

It murders penals, it murders shocks, it murders vet0 rifles. There is 11% for rifles to penetrate it and it takes 25 penetrating shots to kill it from the front, which on average, rounding up, means it needs at least ~220 shots fired at it frontally to get it down.

yes you absolutly right. But there is a small problem there are always at least 3 squads and it take for them like 5-8 seconds sometimes more without lmg

vote here

It murders penals, it murders shocks, it murders vet0 rifles. There is 11% for rifles to penetrate it and it takes 25 penetrating shots to kill it from the front, which on average, rounding up, means it needs at least ~220 shots fired at it frontally to get it down.

Now, getting T2 and T4 could be between 10 and 15 fu cheaper, 221 should be able to arrive slightly faster than M20.

Tnx for the facts, and it also performs well vs Elite riflemen if you use its true potential. It's not a tank, it's an armored car. People tend to forget that.