Realistic symbols/flags.

You are confused between what bolsheviks did in Russian civil war and what Soviets did in ww2. Soviets actions in Poland and civilian bombings, performed by all sides of conflict is also whole other story.

My point still stands — Germans have far more dirt on their hands than any other nation involved in ww2.

1. All sides were dirty in war
2. If you are talking about crimes under the Soviet regime, that would count more towards state repression and state terrorism/class struggle.
3. Holocaust was systematic genocide
4. Nazism emphasized racial purity, social Darwinism, which meant domination of "inferior" peoples by "superior" peoples. It was fundamentally racist and anti-semetic
5. Soviet Union was founded on principles of Marxism-Leninism, which emphasized class struggle and the domination of the capitalist class by the proletariat. It wasn't "bad" fundamentally, but the concept was abused
6. Hammer and sickle is a symbol of many communist parties world-wide, just like the swastika is a symbol of some spiritual groups
7. Symbols can evoke very powerful emotional feelings. some see swastika and are offended and some people see the hammer and sickle and are offended.
8. IMO hammer and sickle is not banned because the Soviets were on the Allied side in WW2. Also, it is a symbol of leftist groups. IMO swastika evokes connections to Nazism while hammer and sickle can be connected to many things like politics and communist crimes. It is illegal to form communist parties in some countries though.


I saw a religious group with swastika banners a month ago. Images of the Nazi party immediately came to mind, but i knew the swastika is a religious sumbol, so i was not offended. Context is very important. In COH2, we can play the German faction in WW2. Having a swastika would definitely mean a connection to the Nazis. My tip to everyone is keep an open-mind. Some things are offensive to some people but not to others.

You are confused between what russians did in Russian civil war and what russiansdid in ww2. Russian actions in Poland and civilian bombings, performed by all sides of conflict is also whole other story.

My point still stands — Germans have far more dirt on their hands than any other nation involved in ww2.

Now it is correctly.

I saw a religious group with swastika banners a month ago. Images of the Nazi party immediately came to mind, but i knew the swastika is a religious sumbol, so i was not offended. Context is very important. In COH2, we can play the German faction in WW2. Having a swastika would definitely mean a connection to the Nazis. My tip to everyone is keep an open-mind. Some things are offensive to some people but not to others.

I think, it is possibly to just give us button in options which turn off swastikas in game. Thats all! I really dont care about facists but i would like see real symbols in historic game

Now it is correctly.

Even if so this discussion is about ww2 and not Russian civil war. People killing their own in civil war, what a surprise.

WW2 is a gritty subject. Don't make an RTS in the genre if you can't handle the history about it.

What about the Afrika Corps? Gonna exclude their symbol too, if that ever even happens?


I'll tell you personally, that myself and many people I know, thoroughly enjoy killing nazis. We love it.

And anyway, this is about something better than RED AND BLUE FLAGS! Relic won't do the true nazi flag, then do the cross instead. A US flag, Hammer and sickle, it's all better than what is there now.

Not officially, but unofficially swastika flags were not uncommon. Crew painted swastikas also appeared from time-to-time. Swastika flags or paint was also used on the top of the turret for Luftwaffe identification.

Swastikas were used as identification early in the war, but after a while they stopped using it because it was too visible to enemy aircraft. I haven't seen that many tanks with swastika flags or swastikas painted on them either. But frontline troops did not have any (really obvious) swastikas on their uniforms. The last swastikas on Wehrmacht troops were a helmet decal with a German eagle, which was removed in 1943, and the breast (arm for the Waffen SS) eagle, which in an RTS is especially hard to see.

Loth though I am to introduce the average COH2 poster to CONSIMWORLD, I can't help but think that this is the most definitive discussion of the issue I know of

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@@.ee6e862/0

If you happen to have time to read 3,000 messages on the subject

because you aren't controlling the nazis and killing allies in the movies. why is sex in movies ok, but why was the hidden "hot coffee" mod in GTA SA was such a scandal?

Hot coffee was a scandal because it was content hidden in the game files, amplified by the moral outrage already existing againsy GTA.

Context shouldn't matter. If Wolfenstein is okay, then the inverse should also be okay.

This thread is stupid! Since the neonazis still use the symmbol it is forbidden in some countries and such as suck be banned. Everywhere. Also, as a Canadian u may not understand the hatred towards that flag, but as you say yourself, it was plastered everywhere, so it is a symbol of a hard time in Europe that we dont want to be reminded off. All the Occupied lands had to listen to the german national anthem ( which still does not contain the first phrases because of this ) and they had to watch that Swastika as a symbol of hatred and destruction.
The Hakenkreuz should be banned forever, never to come back!

Hot coffee was a scandal because it was content hidden in the game files, amplified by the moral outrage already existing againsy GTA.

Context shouldn't matter. If Wolfenstein is okay, then the inverse should also be okay.

context always matters.

i can proudly say i am an atheist but if there is an atheist wanting to be president of the US, he better say he is christian. same human, different persons, different rules and exceptions. same medium, different games, different rules and exceptions

i would not mind swastika on games like bioshock infinite just like how they implemented realistic racist tone of the time. because that game deals with the contents within the game to make us to really think about it (it tries to at least). but swastika in coh2 game wouldn't mean anything profound. and for a subject matter this delicate, you are better off not mentioning it unless you have a very good reason or about to have a delicate and extensive discussion about it.

also, swastika in wolfenstein didnt matter because they were trying to vilify the nazis because you were killing a truck load of them every minute. in this game, where you control german armed forces, you would be using some nazi units to kill non nazis, which is a completely different story.

also, swastika in wolfenstein didnt matter because they were trying to vilify the nazis because you were killing a truck load of them every minute. in this game, where you control german armed forces, you would be using some nazi units to kill non nazis, which is a completely different story.

That's what I'm saying. You should be able to play a game as a Nazi and gun down thousands of Americans, just like how you can play an American and gun down thousands of Nazi's.


You shouldn't have to justify a decision to portray something in art. They shouldn't have to censor themselves.

Sigh, not another nazi fanboy whine thread about them not being able to play virtual dress up with black leather and wrap themselves with crimson red nazi swastika flags...

There's only one definitive thing to add to the discussion:

The truth about axis fanboys
Show Spoiler

Now can we move on and close this?!

That's what I'm saying. You should be able to play a game as a Nazi and gun down thousands of Americans, just like how you can play an American and gun down thousands of Nazi's.


You shouldn't have to justify a decision to portray something in art. They shouldn't have to censor themselves.

Who would want to play that game?
Who would want their children to play that game?

Censorship is about what the majority feel is inappropriate to encourage. You cannot always be there to give guidance, so censorship acts as a gate, to help stem the flow. Self-censorship is simply pre-empting the majority reaction.

Art is expression of perspective. It is a thin line between art and propaganda when you involve intent. Would you consider either of these hypothetical games as art?

9/11 Flight Sim
Khmer Rouge Farming Simulator

1. That's what I'm saying. You should be able to play a game as a Nazi and gun down thousands of Americans, just like how you can play an American and gun down thousands of Nazi's.


2. You shouldn't have to justify a decision to portray something in art. They shouldn't have to censor themselves.

1. because Nazism is evil. and i am not saying it like an eighth grader who just learned about hitler for the first time.


Show Spoiler



2. every action should be justifiable. i literally have no idea how one can disagree on this. if you can't justify your act, it just means you did it for no good reason.

and again, like i told reforever, swastika in this game is censored because there is no good reason for it to be there. if this game was made to spark an educated debate about nazism and its place in the world etc, or if the game was going for a total historical accuracy, i would understand.

Since the last ten posts (or so) have been reasonably set out, and have asked some interesting questions, I am (against my better judgement) going to leave this thread open pro tem.


So with that caveat, if there are any answers coming to questions posed, please bear in mind



PS @OP: Relic are highly unlikely to heed your request. If this kind of topic comes to mind again, I suggest you start it in the Scrap Yard.

Who would want to play that game?
Who would want their children to play that game?

Censorship is about what the majority feel is inappropriate to encourage. You cannot always be there to give guidance, so censorship acts as a gate, to help stem the flow. Self-censorship is simply pre-empting the majority reaction.

Art is expression of perspective. It is a thin line between art and propaganda when you involve intent. Would you consider either of these hypothetical games as art?

9/11 Flight Sim
Khmer Rouge Farming Simulator

Games don't "encourage" things. There are countless studies that back this up. Unless you support the ideas of Jack Thompson or Joe Lieberman and are seriously worried about the effect games have on our kids. In which case, you should consider that the most popular game among kids is Call of Duty.

"Hatred" is one such game, I dunno if you've seen the trailer for it. It's a dual joy stick shooter where you play as a mass murdering shooter, mowing down innocent people and cops. The point of the game is to lampshade the extreme amount of brutal violence in games by removing the "greater good" or "ends justify the means" narrative that usually accompanies these games. Most modern games involve gratuitously violent takedown kills and mass murder of hundreds of enemies, but there's applause not outrage when Joel blew the head off a guy pleading for mercy in The Last of Us at E3, while Hatred has been heavily criticized for the content of its short trailer.

1. because Nazism is evil. and i am not saying it like an eighth grader who just learned about hitler for the first time.


Show Spoiler

2. every action should be justifiable. i literally have no idea how one can disagree on this. if you can't justify your act, it just means you did it for no good reason.

and again, like i told reforever, swastika in this game is censored because there is no good reason for it to be there. if this game was made to spark an educated debate about nazism and its place in the world etc, or if the game was going for a total historical accuracy, i would understand.

The ideas of "good" and "evil' are over-simplifications. If your argument is that we can't portray evil things in games, then Wolfenstein shouldn't be allowed because mass murder should be considered "evil", no?

Why should being an evil character be discouraged or not allowed? Many games certainly offer the option to play a morally bankrupt character who commits murder on a whim, so why is it suddenly worse for those acts to affect virtual children (Illegal in the US) or wear swastika while you do it?

I think that dehumanizing the Nazi's is just as criminal as anything the Nazi's did. It underestimates how easy it is for anyone to commit atrocity, regardless of ideology. Regardless, it shouldn't matter how a game chooses to portray nazism. It's either all okay or none of it is okay.


If a game has to justify it's portrayal of nazism, shouldn't it also have to justify any other deplorable content? Why is it okay to feature an alien race that promotes eugenics and racial purity, but when it's real humans it's suddenly a problem?

Censorship of any art is an awful thing. Criticize it, if you object morally. That's a fair thing to do. But to say that they "shouldn't" do it because you don't agree with it is quite ignorant. I think such ideas, whether they be about the portrayal of nazi's, or women, or race or violence etc really hold games back because there is so much pressure to please as many people as possible that developers are forced to create analogues for the same thing. Fake-real countries are very common, for example. Everyone knows Far Cry 4 takes place in Tibet, but god forbid they call it Tibet.

1. The ideas of "good" and "evil' are over-simplifications. If your argument is that we can't portray evil things in games, then Wolfenstein shouldn't be allowed because mass murder should be considered "evil", no?

2. Why should being an evil character be discouraged or not allowed? Many games certainly offer the option to play a morally bankrupt character who commits murder on a whim, so why is it suddenly worse for those acts to affect virtual children (Illegal in the US) or wear swastika while you do it?

3. I think that dehumanizing the Nazi's is just as criminal as anything the Nazi's did. It underestimates how easy it is for anyone to commit atrocity, regardless of ideology. Regardless, it shouldn't matter how a game chooses to portray nazism. It's either all okay or none of it is okay.


4. If a game has to justify it's portrayal of nazism, shouldn't it also have to justify any other deplorable content? Why is it okay to feature an alien race that promotes eugenics and racial purity, but when it's real humans it's suddenly a problem?

5. Censorship of any art is an awful thing. Criticize it, if you object morally. That's a fair thing to do. But to say that they "shouldn't" do it because you don't agree with it is quite ignorant. I think such ideas, whether they be about the portrayal of nazi's, or women, or race or violence etc really hold games back because there is so much pressure to please as many people as possible that developers are forced to create analogues for the same thing. Fake-real countries are very common, for example. Everyone knows Far Cry 4 takes place in Tibet, but god forbid they call it Tibet.

1. i think i answered but oh well.same medium, different games, different rules. coh2 does not have a good reason to implement the offensive symbol.

2. fair point, but wouldn't it be better if developer had a reason to put offensive things in there games? i remember my roommate playing a game which involved him pissing on some ppl just because. that is stupid. its like a novelty item that you just put it in because you can and we'll hook ppl's attention for like an hour. and to put swastika in coh2, a symbol that affected like literally every people just mere 70 years ago in negative ways, i think there should be a better reason than 'just because some ppl want it in the game'.

3. I know that not all nazi members were murdering psychopaths. i think rommel was a committed nazi while still not committing other atrocities that may be georing and hitler did.

4. alien is completely fictional

5. but there is a good reason behind why you disagree with it. not a whim like 'argh, we want to play with nazi symbols on it just because~~'. let say if next deus ex or bioshock game that want to explore nazism and wanted to portray a real swastika in their game, but they were censored by governments. then i would agree with you because those games are as much about making player question about racist ways and human augmentation in mature ways. then i would agree with you and say the censors put on that game is stupid.

but lets not get off topic here. we are talking about coh2. lets not act like putting swastika in this game would achieve something profound. it would achieve satisfaction for a few obsessed ppl and probably offend more ppl in the name of nothing.

4. alien is completely fictional

So it's not so much the ideals and practices of the Nazi's that are the issue, it's that they're the nazi's.

let say if next deus ex or bioshock game that want to explore nazism and wanted to portray a real swastika in their game, but they were censored by governments. then i would agree with you because those games are as much about making player question about racist ways and human augmentation in mature ways. then i would agree with you and say the censors put on that game is stupid.

but lets not get off topic here. we are talking about coh2. lets not act like putting swastika in this game would achieve something profound. it would achieve satisfaction for a few obsessed ppl and probably offend more ppl in the name of nothing.

I think we just fundamentally disagree here. I don't think it needs to be profound to include it. I don't like that these decisions have to be weighed in how many people might be offended. There's nothing wrong with immaturity in games, atleast from a moral standpoint.

Wolftenstein with its swastikas created a new wave of nazi political groups... oh wait it didnt. Political correctness at its finest. This generation is so sensitive.

I think we just fundamentally disagree here.

agree