Blobbing

I feel Relic made a wrong decision in allowing players to have LMG so early in the game, and this for every faction. LMG should remain something linked to T4 and behind a Munition sink wall. Because it simply reward defensive and non micro play style, it does not reward people taking risk in their strategy.

This is just the final nail Ostheer needs to finally be the the least desirable faction in the game. Other factions wouldn't even be effected. USF and Soviet LMG's are locked behind a Command Points and aren't effected by this change, while OKW's LMG's are already in T4.

Looking back into Vcoh, that was well balanced between vanilla faction, LMG weren't that spamed because really expensive and many other upgrade required munition before it.

vCoH is an awful example of how to not have blobs. Lieutenants bonuses, movement penalties when not blobbed, AT weapons that are not effective out of a blob, easy-made defenses capable to holding back infantry in areas where the blob isn't, paper-vehicles with rock-infantry, Assault Rifles with no movement penalty, mass Panzerschrecks, and fucking Group Zeal to top it all off. vCoH's blobbing was even worse than OKW's.

Just noticed you meant only meant Wehr and USA. In which case it's different, Grenadiers were so strong they didn't need LMG's to keep up with the Americans, even when BARs were fielded. MG 42's were so strong they didn't really need babysat, anything in-front of them was prey except Rangers or Airborne. Now Grens might not need LMG's to keep up with Conscripts, but they certainly need them to keep up with USF.

The biggest downside is that it just doesn't make any sense at all. You shouldn't treat the symptoms of a larger problem by introducing more problems.

First of all, blobs are not universally overpowered. Does a blob of soviet combat engineers really need a received accuracy penalty? How about rear echelon troops? Assault grenadiers? If not, then clearly blobbing is not what's overpowered but the units in the blob.

Therefore, nerfing all "blobs" makes some units worse for no reason.

Why not just tone down the things that actually need to be toned down before introducing whole new game mechanices with potential consequences that are impossible to foresee?

Without nerfing blobs themselves, I think our best bet would be to redesign LMG's (again) and take the Panzerschreck away from Volksgrenadiers.

LMG's could have flat DPS at all ranges, or just increase the squad's overall DPS without being specifically 'good' anywhere (although it'd be good in close range as a side-effect of all squads having higher DPS the closer they are). Panzerschrecks could go to Sturmpioneers as an alternative to the Minesweeper + Repair Kit.

Just remove the 100 pop and make it as it was in coh1 . No territory no pop no blob.

All that does is completely remove the possibility for any comebacks, which already happens if one side has an advantage for too long. It'd also make finding games to cast harder because more games would be one-sided and uninteresting.

All that does is completely remove the possibility for any comebacks, which already happens if one side has an advantage for too long. It'd also make finding games to cast harder because more games would be one-sided and uninteresting.

That was not the case in COH1 .

As a senior strategist. Who do you think is the most experienced blobber in the game?

I don't know sorry. I don't really pay attention to who blobs the most or the most effective. I might keep it mind if I notice my opponent repeatedly doing it.

I just know the players that typically use their core infantry rather well and consistantly place them and group them in the right positions. There is a lot of players who do this well though.

LMG's to keep up with the Americans, even when BARs were fielded. MG 42's were so strong they didn't really need babysat, anything in-front of them was prey except Rangers or Airborne. Now Grens might not need LMG's to keep up with Conscripts, but they certainly need them to keep up with USF.

Back into vCoh, Rifles were more or less the same vs volks. But volks had a SMG upgrade making them deadly at close range and BARs was a universal upgrade for rifles.
To me, it would make more sense to give LMG to grenadiers and not volks. Volks could have a SMG upgrade from T2 as in vcoh

Unlike Romeo, I think a Blob should be treated, whatever unit you're blobbing.
A blob of Rear Echelon should receive the same penalty than a LMG blob. But I feel it is really difficult to put in place this kind of modification. Because its need a strong definition of what is a blob, which spacing between units, what if the blob is composed of 4 different units from 4 different players, what about bottleneck and shock points where you need to concentrate your force to attack etc...
So dealing with the concept of blob itself is probably not the easier way to tone down it.

And yes, it is probably far easier to deal with what make people blob a lot: Powerful LMG and shreck.

Back into vCoh, Rifles were more or less the same vs volks. But volks had a SMG upgrade making them deadly at close range and BARs was a universal upgrade for rifles.
To me, it would make more sense to give LMG to grenadiers and not volks. Volks could have a SMG upgrade from T2 as in vcoh

Unlike Romeo, I think a Blob should be treated, whatever unit you're blobbing.
A blob of Rear Echelon should receive the same penalty than a LMG blob. But I feel it is really difficult to put in place this kind of modification. Because its need a strong definition of what is a blob, which spacing between units, what if the blob is composed of 4 different units from 4 different players, what about bottleneck and shock points where you need to concentrate your force to attack etc...
So dealing with the concept of blob itself is probably not the easier way to tone down it.

And yes, it is probably far easier to deal with what make people blob a lot: Powerful LMG and shreck.

There's a rather simple concept behind fixing blobs, that would be improving anti-blob mechanics that already exist from the start. MG's used to punish blobs by suppressing and pinning them. Then people complained about "instant pin" MG's so they were eventually nerfed, despite the existing mechanics that helped mitigate them (Mortar Smoke Barrage anyone?) Not to mention American Infantry and Shocktroops both come with smoke grenades to obscure the MG's line of sight.


I also don't just mean maschinengewehrs, I am also talking about Maxims (Which already suppress and pin as well as do quite a bit of damage) and the M2HB which could use some improvement in this area, though I'm curious what 2x M2HB's using overlapping fields of fire could do.

Empowering HMG wouldn't make much sense to counter blob. Because it also impact the usual game design. Instead of blobs we would see HMG spam covering all the map killing any infantry strategy.
A single unit able to control 5 others brings the same issue as blobbing 5 units to control every aspect of the game.

IMO, the solution doesn't lie in How do I fight a Blob.
But
what Relic thinks about Blob, do they want it as part if their game.
Yes - and we can close the topic.
No - so they have to correct it.

The game + WFA is reaching is maturation after 6 months, regular players know the game, its mechanics, what works, what is useful, what is useless, which commanders are the best suited etc...
And of course, that blobbing is much more rewarding / easy to manage that other tactics. We're going to see more and more strategy based on blobs in team game. Maybe 1vs1 will be kept apart for a while but I'm pretty sure we're going to see more blob strat in this format as well. It just requires a bit more time to reach it.

The biggest downside is that it just doesn't make any sense at all. You shouldn't treat the symptoms of a larger problem by introducing more problems.

It makes logical sense that if you shoot into a mass of bodies, you are more likely to hit something. Also, I don't understand how it would "introduce more problems" the coh2 engine is perfectly capable of applying area buffs, and I presume debuffs wouldn't be that far off.

First of all, blobs are not universally overpowered. Does a blob of soviet combat engineers really need a received accuracy penalty? How about rear echelon troops? Assault grenadiers? If not, then clearly blobbing is not what's overpowered but the units in the blob.

Of course blobs aren't universally overpowered. But the purpose isn't in fact to apply penalties to units, it is simply to discourage an (almost) universally vilified strategy, and to reward good micro.

Therefore, nerfing all "blobs" makes some units worse for no reason.

I disagree, it makes some units worse when you blob. If you want to move a large group, that is your prerogative, however it would be wise to try and split them up before your next big engagement.

Why not just tone down the things that actually need to be toned down before introducing whole new game mechanices with potential consequences that are impossible to foresee?

I am of the impression that your potential consequences are vastly overstated. I am all for balancing in other areas, however if the goal is to discourage a certain play style, I would argue that an area debuff would have the least possible negative consequences in other situations. If you have a problem, attack the problem.

If the toilet is broken, don't start fixing the sink

I'd like to see if anyone made it in the top 20s in any faction through blobbing, if blobbing was so damn overpowered.

I think some people have this misconception that selective concentration is a moral hazard called blobbing and for some reason their infantry squads should be dueling 1v1 in random fields....

How do you distinguish said "blob" from a tactically positioned units that are maintaining same distance with the said "blob"? Idiotic.

I find that blobbing is a tactic among others, if it become overlay preeminent, it's only because it's simple to do and still working well (especially vs new player).

But if a tactic become the only tactic to win used by top players then maybe some buffs to it's counters are in needed.

The counters to blobbing are : Mines, well place hmg(s), canisters shot, phosphorus gaz, incendiary barrage, Oswind, zis arty shot and others.

The weakest faction vs blobs is US, because they don't have many non-doctrinal counters before Sherman.

The root of blobbing come from the HMG nerf. Buff HMG a bit and blobbing will be less common.

By the way, i say that blobbing is a rather «noob» lazy tactic... exploited because of the lack of good basic counters.

I think we should increase the cost of Volks to offset large numbers of shrek blobs. Volks are WAY to efficient for their price if you factor shrek upgrades on mainline infantry and Vet 5 bonuses.

I think we should increase the cost of Volks to offset large numbers of shrek blobs. Volks are WAY to efficient for their price if you factor shrek upgrades on mainline infantry and Vet 5 bonuses.

I'd rather see a nerf to either their Panzerschrecks, their Vet or both instead as I'd rather see a fix to the aspect of the unit that's actually broken than a blanket nerf.

I think we should increase the cost of Volks to offset large numbers of shrek blobs. Volks are WAY to efficient for their price if you factor shrek upgrades on mainline infantry and Vet 5 bonuses.

Volks aren't the problem, and Panzerschrecks aren't the problem. Putting Panzerschrecks on Volks is the problem, though. Nerf Volks, and they'll be useless without Schrecks. Nerf Schrecks, and they'll be useless unless you blob them. Either way, you just exacerbate the problem.

I play USF and Soviets a lot, more than germans because their much more boring, but yeah I now see its not blobbing that's an issue, its the Volk with schrecks and elite infy blobs that Stephen had said these need to be fixed a GG

It makes logical sense that if you shoot into a mass of bodies, you are more likely to hit something. Also, I don't understand how it would "introduce more problems" the coh2 engine is perfectly capable of applying area buffs, and I presume debuffs wouldn't be that far off.

It doesn't make any sense to add this to the game, regardless of what makes sense in real life.

Of course blobs aren't universally overpowered. But the purpose isn't in fact to apply penalties to units, it is simply to discourage an (almost) universally vilified strategy, and to reward good micro.

If the purpose isn't to apply penalties to units, don't apply penalties to units. Blobbing is already discouraged. Good micro is already rewarded. Blobbing is only vilified by people who can't beat it.

I disagree, it makes some units worse when you blob. If you want to move a large group, that is your prerogative, however it would be wise to try and split them up before your next big engagement.

It's already wise to split your units up before your next big engagement.

I am of the impression that your potential consequences are vastly overstated. I am all for balancing in other areas, however if the goal is to discourage a certain play style, I would argue that an area debuff would have the least possible negative consequences in other situations. If you have a problem, attack the problem.

What am I overstating? I think this will make blobbing worse across the board and that will not necessarily be a good thing. To attempt to balance this anti zeal aura will require a lot of time and testing. The implementation questions involved have already been covered by others. For what purpose? Because obers are too strong? The goal is absolutely not to discourage any play style. Why would a game developer ever aim to discourage a play style?

If the toilet is broken, don't start fixing the sink

The toilet is like the one thing in the whole bathroom that is not currently broken.

Anti blob aura is a very bad idea. Great counters to it already exist in game, people just have to learn how to use it.

Just watch top rated match to learn how the pros counter it. Blobbing is a weakness, learn to exploit it.

Just watch top rated match to learn how the pros counter it. Blobbing is a weakness, learn to exploit it.

Top level players don't fight blobbing because top level players don't blob. Also the argument itself is kinda crappy because it's basically saying that if you're way better than someone else, you can beat them. Well no shit.