Relic, an idea for Volksgrenadier improvement

Lack of training? Dude you're confusing Volksgrenadiers with Volkssturm.

I know the difference between Volksgrenadiers and Volkssturm. Volksgrenadier divisions were smaller but more heavily armed, they were oftem formed out of shattered divisions, conscripts, and redundant luftwaffe and kriegsmarine personnel.

Portraying them 100% accurately in-game is not possible, because they'd have to have either less men or less presence than a Grenadier squad, but similar DPS or price. Rather I'd like to keep them as-is but with the ability to use automatic weapons to stay relevent, but not make them into assault troops like you proposed. Leave the Elite Veterans to the Obersoldaten squads.

*Intentionally ignores QueenRatchet123*

@Hon3ynuts: Fixing the RAK43 would prevent any kind of early rekt.

Theres a reason people don't rely on At guns for too long, they bleed and are hard to utilize effectivly. The other factions do not want to rely on at guns and OKW would be forced into this playstyle. No matter how much they buff it it could not replace what shreks are now

Removing it would be OK if rak43 gets fixed, IE longer sight, faster reload, survivability buff and less required XP for vetting up.

You forgot the price raise to 320 MP.

Seirra's idea isn't bad for a commander ability. Much like the con assault package. Too much for standard issue.Except for the mp40, that just sounds like it sucks.

I love it when people cite wikipedia as a source in history discussions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Academic_use

The idea itself isn't too bad, it would certainly fit thematically, but I'm just quite sceptical that it would fit gameplay wise.

First of course there would be the overlap, the Volks would be pretty close to being Sturmpios. The sum of the package written would be extremely similar to the damage profile of STG44 that Sturmpios have. Combined with their reduced incoming accuracy the units would (besides their active abilities) be almost identical gameplay wise.

Second is the problem with scaling. OKW has already the best scaling of units due to 5 vet levels. Upgrades also fall into the category of scaling improvements, they are pretty much the reason why Grens tend to scale better into the lategame than Conscripts.

Third is that I don't think it fixes the issue listed.

As it stands a lot of people are complaining about Volksgrenadier Panzershrek blobs and Obersoldaten support.

Most likely this would just change the game in the way that people get an even bigger blob of Volks, some upgraded with Panzerschrecks and some with the anti infantry package. So it wouldn't actually solve the problem, but just change it.

I really think the biggest problem is simply the Panzerschreck on Volksgrenadiers. A resilient and cheap core infantry unit with the strongest AT upgrade. Couple that with the strong vet bonuses and the quick vetting due to vehicle damage and you have a unit that performs far better at mid / late stages of the game than it's base stats show. With how the OKW is lacking useful anti vehicle options in the early game it is to a degree needed. The Raketenwerfer is simply too weak vs mobile units due to it's long aim time and low HP. That's why in my previous post I suggested methods to fill this gap in other ways. The Panzerfaust one being the most prominent, as that's proven as working for the Ostheer and would also help other OKW units. Giving them a snare that reduces the mobility means the Raketenwerfer could actually fire on targets ;p

I've had a quick discussion with Romeo and we've come to a few ideas that might be considered okay as far as treating Panzershrek blobs.

As it stands a lot of people are complaining about Volksgrenadier Panzershrek blobs and Obersoldaten support.

so you discussed it with a biggest no skill blobber out there

so you discussed it with a biggest no skill blobber out there

shots fired

so you discussed it with a biggest no skill blobber out there

I've had a quick discussion with Romeo and we've come to a few ideas that might be considered okay as far as treating Panzershrek blobs.

As it stands a lot of people are complaining about Volksgrenadier Panzershrek blobs and Obersoldaten support.


I think part of the problem may be included in a lack of munitions sinks for the OKW, aside from Grenades, MG Upgrades, and artillery strikes, there isn't much else to sink munitions into.


I think a good change to implement onto Volksgrenadiers specifically may be to include an automatic weapons combat package.

In history, Volksgrenadier was just a move to economize personnel into regiments of 6-line infantry instead of the standard 9-line infantry. This was already very real for a lot of divisions.

To compensate, volksgrenadiers were given a higher volume of automatic weapons, LMG's, SMG's, and of course the new "wonder weapon" the STG-44.

So the idea, would be to give the OKW Volksgrenadiers a automatic weapons combat package that includes 1x LMG-34/42, 1x STG-44, and 2x MP-40's. Completely removing the KAR-98k from their inventory, locking out panzershreks, and giving them coats for cold immunity.


Perhaps this combat package can also give them a couple grenade options, although I'm just slinging ideas.



This would allow Volksgrenadiers to be less reliant on Obersoldaten and Sturmpioneers, while also providing an excellent and viable munitions sink aside from more panzershreks.

I second this proposal. Although I understand if this change were to happen (doubtful, due to all of the logistics of balance and the general consensus of more experienced and represented individuals) it would definitely not be anytime in the near-future. I feel as if right now the Volksgrenadiers are lacking in terms of being a core-infantry unit. For example, their US Forces equivalent (Riflemen) have so much more flexibility when determining what role they will be utilized in throughout their combat initiatives. In addition, with the Grenadiers from the Ostheer/Wehrmacht being able select an LMG non-doctrinally, and doctrinally gaining access to G43 semi-automatic rifles (depending on the commander the player selects), the Panzershrek is the ONLY AT armament that is provided to the Volksgrenadiers. Unless this is 100% intentional and relates to balance logistics and what not, I think adding an AT piece (Panzerfaust, grenade, etc...), decreasing the potency of their base anti-personnel grenade, and giving them an LMG 34 "combat package" upgrade for 60 - 90 munitions (depending on the inclusion of cold immunity, and whether or not the LMG 34 will function like the Obersoldaten's (being able to utilize it without being stationary) LMG 34). I think this would provide enough balance to compensate for the removal of the Panzershrek, and making the Volksgrenadiers more "efficient" when engaging enemy infantry units. If anybody agrees, disagrees, and/or has any feedback to what I just stated, feel free to reply.

The drama and stupidity in this thread is real. INB4 Invis'd posts everywhere, possible thread lock.

sierra pls no moar historical info - congrats on being a wiki hero but

game balance > anything not related to game balance, pls keep in mind you are posting in a balance sub-forum

Bold, Underlined Text doesn't make you more correct.

There is a fundamental problem with the proposal at hand. It is basically an oxymoron:

I paraphrase here:
"In order to stop one unit from being mass produced, we need to make it more versatile while keeping the thing people are complaining about."

When was the last time that added versatility made a unit less appealing?

i had this same idea but not with that much firepower lol

my idea is for relic to do 1 of 3 things:

60 munitions for 1 g43 rifle or
90 munitions for 2 g43 rifles or
90 munitions for 1 g43 rifle and cold immunity

the idea is to keep volks a long range unit while giving okw some anti-inf munitions upgrades. the g43 is best option here since you already have stg44 with sturmpios and mgs with obers.

Milka talking sense

I've had a quick discussion with Romeo and we've come to a few ideas that might be considered okay as far as treating Panzershrek blobs.

As it stands a lot of people are complaining about Volksgrenadier Panzershrek blobs and Obersoldaten support.


I think part of the problem may be included in a lack of munitions sinks for the OKW, aside from Grenades, MG Upgrades, and artillery strikes, there isn't much else to sink munitions into.


I think a good change to implement onto Volksgrenadiers specifically may be to include an automatic weapons combat package.

In history, Volksgrenadier was just a move to economize personnel into regiments of 6-line infantry instead of the standard 9-line infantry. This was already very real for a lot of divisions.

To compensate, volksgrenadiers were given a higher volume of automatic weapons, LMG's, SMG's, and of course the new "wonder weapon" the STG-44.

So the idea, would be to give the OKW Volksgrenadiers a automatic weapons combat package that includes 1x LMG-34/42, 1x STG-44, and 2x MP-40's. Completely removing the KAR-98k from their inventory, locking out panzershreks, and giving them coats for cold immunity.


Perhaps this combat package can also give them a couple grenade options, although I'm just slinging ideas.



This would allow Volksgrenadiers to be less reliant on Obersoldaten and Sturmpioneers, while also providing an excellent and viable munitions sink aside from more panzershreks.

Problem with your proposal is that the problem is the OKW needs a munitions sink, and the solution doesn't really do anything for that except make Volks compete with Obers. I think some more overall infantry upgrades that are more into durability, visibility, mobility etc. rather than firepower would be a better idea, for example, Volks as-is can salvage rwrecks just like Sturmpioniers, which is wierd and sort of makes the Sturms less special. If however the Volks' ability to salvage is gained via an upgrade, and which costs munitions, then we got something going on here. And really, it's not like many pople use salvage anyways, and in any case you have two T0 units for that job, three if you go for Salvage Doctrine. The salvage ability should really be an unlockable upgrade for anything besides Sturms, and it's not like that's going to be a major gamechanger either, unless you really like using salvage and have a mind to use every unit for that job.

Durability or "survival" packages could also be something Volks or other infantry can get; this in effect splits the Volks' current combat package upgrade that gives panzerschreck into two components: getting the weapon, and getting durability boost (and immune to winter). This could even be applied to other units, making them sturdier but cost munitions. This may not necessarily be more health but things like reduced vulnerability to suppression, increased movement in mud or deep snow or water, or bonuses while in cover or garrison (ie Osttruppen's passive ability to do the same). None of these really directly affect firepower and thus reduce the tendency to compete against other units like Obers.
If you really want combat bonuses, I suggest what WarMonkey offered: G43s instead of automatics, at least then you're not copy pasting.

To complement this change Obers themselvse could have this as well: they start off with Mausers and one MG34, but you can upgrade to another MG34 (but takes up all weap slots). Maybe even flamethrower or MP40s? Spec Ops doctrine already offers IR StGs, so I think MP44s is out of the question.

I agree with the idea of giving Volks an AI combat package but 2 MP40s, 2 STGs and one LMG34/42 might be a bit too much for one upgrade.

I'm not saying that this upgrade would be "OP" because I don't know how it would be implemented. Will they get a LMG42? If they get a LMG34, will it be the same Obers have? How expensive will this upgrade be? Such a large upgrade should at least cost 100 MU IMO.

90 MU for 3 STGs or 3 G43s (+ cold immunity?)seems to be a good deal as well - Panzerfüsiliers get 3 G43s + sight for 90 MU and Obers get their IR STGs for 90 MU.

60 munitions for 1 g43

Your sense of humor is remarkable sir.

Reminder that Vehicle Crews do a high of 16.5484 DPS while Assault Engineers do 48.0312 DPS, yet both use M3 Submachine Guns. I don't know why people are talking about some weapons being too good to be part of a Volksgrenadier upgrade package, there's no limit to how good or bad the Volk's weapons can function.

You could do that. You still have to question how an anti infantry upgrade will affect how volks play out through the game and matchups. Like volks vs conscripts, which I'm given to understand is a pretty even matchup that swings one way or another depending on vet. Any upgrade worth implementing and buying is going to have a pretty big effect on a matchup like that.

There's also transparency concerns, because this game is already has too much information you can only get by statmining or playing loads.

why not just make one of their defensive gains from vet to an offensive gain so they also scale offensively as the game flows?

i also like removing schrek from volks and putting it on sturmpios.