About the B-4

By the way, many times it's enough just to have stuka doctrine in line up. Soviets are forced to pick up doctrine since 2 CP if rely on elite inf so if Im not sure which doctrine my enemy has I just can't go for B-4 because it bill be too risky, while Axis players often can wait a long time after 2 CPs to choose doctrine.

And then people ask for a varied meta...

varied meta cannot happen unless more units are added into the game or structural changes are made.

B4 is used to counter overly campy Axis play and Axis heavy tanks. That is the whole point of picking the Counterattack Commander. It isn't an automatic pick doctrine too...

SOviet is already the most doctrinal-dependent faction in-game. What o we want now? 100 percent ISU? Oh wait that is going to get nerfed soon

why always this bias? i play both factions equally and i find allys actual way stronger lol

And then people ask for a varied meta...

B-4 is not more of a problem for varied Meta than Tiger Ace, Jagdtiger, P-47 Strafe and other powerful stuff. Current static Meta takes root in very deep problems such as call-ins is too good, arty strikes is too bad/slow/cost inefficient and large portion of commanders is bad designed in general.

Just look how large roster of unused commanders are. Soviet industry, which was fun, unic, and interesting commander decimated by nerfs and tanks cost rebalance, current mp penalty punishing to the point where if soviet player sacrifices whole infantry force on purpose he will still have mp problems. Majority of decent ppsh doctrines (Conscript support, Advanced warfare) destroyed by conscripts being worthless after first obers hit battlefield/grens start receiving vet from their lmg on lightning speed. G43 is bad choice in most cases even for 45 muni. Wehr heavy arty underpowered in general (railroad arty too inaccurate and takes too much time to hit, sector arty comes with bad commanders). T34-85 pushback to 10cp destroyed Armored assault, which can’t rely on call-in infantry in early game. 2cp dshk makes as much sense as 2 cp vanilla osttruppen. Urban defense forward hq nerfed even more in last patch with building destruction system change.

And most ridiculous to me is that people still want to nerf little which remained from strategic options: b-4, Tiger ace, luftwaffe supply drops. Let's then remove all but default commanders, and finally turn game into company of call-ins and blobs. Hooray, dream balance achieved, only tanks can have huge impact on game flow, nobody needs deep and complicated gameplay anyway.

TL;DR: Yes, B-4 is OP in some cases, no, it shouldn't be nerfed until other more important core problems such as call-ins are fixed to keep some diversity in already heavy favoring heavy tanks play Meta and save balance from ultimate late game sniping tanks such as jagdtiger and elefant.

varied meta cannot happen unless more units are added into the game or structural changes are made.

B4 is used to counter overly campy Axis play and Axis heavy tanks. That is the whole point of picking the Counterattack Commander. It isn't an automatic pick doctrine too...

SOviet is already the most doctrinal-dependent faction in-game. What o we want now? 100 percent ISU? Oh wait that is going to get nerfed soon

Well, if you have read me before, i'm in favour of several changes to the game. But if you just surrender to the idea that we have to play with 3-4 commander per faction everygame then nothing is gonna change.

snip

I agree, on the order on which things has to be done. But my reply was mostly to this type of comments.

"For the ones who are not wanting to 'counter a doctrinal unit with another doctrinal unit' - welcome to COH2.
Commanders are made for a purpose."

"Company of Heroes 2 is designed to use doctrinal units against other doctrinal units. We have to deal with that."


Because there are other more important issues, we can't just ignore the little one and the details.

My point has more weight than you think because:
1. There is no doctrinal counter to the B4, so what you say does in no way weaken my point
2. My post was not specifically about the B4 but only used it as an expample for things that are not that well designed in CoH2. Or where did I say only OH suffers from this?

1. stuka dive bomb?
2. sorry I guess i wanted to stay on topic, B4

You get 3 commander slots

I feel sorry for those Ostheer players who have to waste one of them on such terrible doctrines as the list below in case they need to counter a B4


Close Air Support

Jaeger Armour

Joint Operations

Luftwaffe

Spearhead

whats counter as OKW against non retarded B4 user? none
destroying HQ, wiping retreated infantry has never been so easy, destroying heaviest most expensive tanks in game with a combination of guards+ B4 combo, recon sniping with USF major + B4 . 50% extra dmg too frikin much.
and that doctrine has shock troops which are even against obers and you can take them on 2 cp yeeey. KV1s are good for soaking dmg and as support infantry tank so SOVS should be happy they have ultimate killing 2 click strategy against OKW. As USF player im happy cause i know I can be of use now with major scouting, as OKW im sad cause i have to constantly move my troops and constantly build new HQS even thou im not even engaging the enemy directly. Please dont mention that fallsch are actually counter cause a good B4 will defend it properly, Walking stukas will just decrew it, blitzing into it will make your tanks die to enemy ATm and maybe just maybe decrew the weapon.
Any more ideas people?Did i rant too much?

Combined arms OP please nerf.

You get 3 commander slots

I feel sorry for those Ostheer players who have to waste one of them on such terrible doctrines as the list below in case they need to counter a B4


Close Air Support

Jaeger Armour

Joint Operations

Luftwaffe

Spearhead

Wat? Frag bombs do not counter B4s. At best they will kill the crew, which in case of a vetted crew might be annoying, but thats about it - they do not destroy the piece. LeFH 18, likewise, will not counter a B4 - its just the other way around, the B4 will make short work of the LeFH and you can also say goodbye to your Pak 43...shall I go on? Among those you listed, Jäger armor is a virtual hardcounter to Counterattack not only because of the Recon/Dive bomb combo but also because against the KV1 the Elephant is actually for once useful. The rest however, meh.

If you are having your tanks one shotted across the map, given the amazing B-4 turn speed and shell travel time, well, you might want to consider not sitting with your tanks being immobile for extended periods of time against B-4 user, because this thing have least of all arty pieces chance to shoot at something that is moving.

Precision strike being 90 muni also isn't really spammable.

90 munitions lategame for soviet not spammable? you serious?

Ok, I don't get one thing.
Firstly You cried about great vet 3 bonus that can kill tanks with a single shot. When I told You about doctrine that can just decrew B-4 (and van Voort today) which means no vet, plenty of RNG, no vet 3 bonus, you started saying that it cannot kill B-4, just the crew. So what's the problem? vet 3 bonus? Precision strike? Or B-4 itself?
Relic! Remove B-4!

I'm not complaining about Jadgtiger that can survived button, mark target, FAB-50 bombing run and shooting from 2 ISUs yet you complaing about unit which can be killed or decrewed with 2 click.

In 2v2 as OKW and OST just take Jadgtiger and Elephnat+Stuka and it's gg. No counter. ISU is negated by Jadgtiger and B-4 by Stuka. Pls, tell me what's the counter for such combo!

@kurcohista
Try to move units when you see recon or make flaktruck to kill planes.
Stuka will just decrew? So decrewing B-4 and removing vet is not a counter? You are saying about great 50% dmaage bonus and then you say that decrew is not a counter

@spajn
No, it's not spammable. Recon+Precision strike is more that 90 and still you have to plant mines everywhere because your biggest tanks vs Panthers, Tiger, King Tiger or JT are T34/76, SU85, or mighty KV1
And remember about Shocks smoke grenedes which are must-use against Obers and Grens.

______________
By the way, from my experience, decrewing vet2/3 B-4 it's most of the time GG for me.
And I will quote myself if you missed it:
"By the way, many times it's enough just to have stuka doctrine in line up. Soviets are forced to pick up doctrine since 2 CP if rely on elite inf so if Im not sure which doctrine my enemy has I just can't go for B-4 because it bill be too risky, while Axis players often can wait a long time after 2 CPs to choose doctrine."

In 2v2 as OKW and OST just take Jadgtiger and Elephnat+Stuka and it's gg. No counter. ISU is negated by Jadgtiger and B-4 by Stuka. Pls, tell me what's the counter for such combo!

Depends on map and combination. If you are talking about double Soviets, AND YOU STILL want to go ISU, you start with the typical double sniper + maxim combo, you then go into T34 to put the pressure on OKW for stalling for the JT and Katy if they are too campy around their medic HQ. Then you just go full call in tanks.

Unless we talk about Ettelbruck or Kharkov, JT is just something you are able to get when your opponent is heavy stalling into call ins.
JT is not something you LIKE to get, rather as an answer to mitigate damage from the ISU.

For examples: i guess Romeo can tell you what work or not in his 2v2 tournament.

Depends on map and combination. If you are talking about double Soviets, AND YOU STILL want to go ISU, you start with the typical double sniper + maxim combo, you then go into T34 to put the pressure on OKW for stalling for the JT and Katy if they are too campy around their medic HQ. Then you just go full call in tanks.

Unless we talk about Ettelbruck or Kharkov, JT is just something you are able to get when your opponent is heavy stalling into call ins.
JT is not something you LIKE to get, rather as an answer to mitigate damage from the ISU.

For examples: i guess Romeo can tell you what work or not in his 2v2 tournament.

The problem is, T34 dont put any pressure due to volks schrecks blob. Add Pak40 from OST teammate and no pressure at all.
If you wont win until 15-20min you are doomed as allies vs JT+Ele+Stuka.

Ok, I don't get one thing.
Firstly You cried about great vet 3 bonus that can kill tanks with a single shot. When I told You about doctrine that can just decrew B-4 (and van Voort today) which means no vet, plenty of RNG, no vet 3 bonus, you started saying that it cannot kill B-4, just the crew. So what's the problem? vet 3 bonus? Precision strike? Or B-4 itself?
Relic! Remove B-4!

I'm not complaining about Jadgtiger that can survived button, mark target, FAB-50 bombing run and shooting from 2 ISUs yet you complaing about unit which can be killed or decrewed with 2 click.

In 2v2 as OKW and OST just take Jadgtiger and Elephnat+Stuka and it's gg. No counter. ISU is negated by Jadgtiger and B-4 by Stuka. Pls, tell me what's the counter for such combo!

@kurcohista
Try to move units when you see recon or make flaktruck to kill planes.
Stuka will just decrew? So decrewing B-4 and removing vet is not a counter? You are saying about great 50% dmaage bonus and then you say that decrew is not a counter

@spajn
No, it's not spammable. Recon+Precision strike is more that 90 and still you have to plant mines everywhere because your biggest tanks vs Panthers, Tiger, King Tiger or JT are T34/76, SU85, or mighty KV1
And remember about Shocks smoke grenedes which are must-use against Obers and Grens.

______________
By the way, from my experience, decrewing vet2/3 B-4 it's most of the time GG for me.
And I will quote myself if you missed it:
"By the way, many times it's enough just to have stuka doctrine in line up. Soviets are forced to pick up doctrine since 2 CP if rely on elite inf so if Im not sure which doctrine my enemy has I just can't go for B-4 because it bill be too risky, while Axis players often can wait a long time after 2 CPs to choose doctrine."

why do people still dont reckonzie that your helping the sov player if you only decrew the b4? yeye its a bug but untill the bug isnt fixed its broken.

why do people still dont reckonzie that your helping the sov player if you only decrew the b4? yeye its a bug but untill the bug isnt fixed its broken.

Taking away the ability to precision strike and 50% more damage is doing soviets sooooooo great favor.

By the way, vet 3 B-4 can't kill, or not always vet 3 Jagdpanzer so don't say it kills tanks with single shot.

Can't we all at least agree that the current "counter the B-4" situation is bad?

Used doc with Stuka dive bomb = instakill it by clicking twice

I haven't seen it enough to comment on it being too hard to kill WITHOUT Stuka dive bomb, but it getting one-shotted by an off-map that cannot be stopped is complete BS. If it still kept a sliver of health the soviet player would at least have a chance to save it with extensive repairs.

The problem is, T34 dont put any pressure due to volks schrecks blob. Add Pak40 from OST teammate and no pressure at all.
If you wont win until 15-20min you are doomed as allies vs JT+Ele+Stuka.

Go to Romeos channel, check the 2v2 tournament and tell me that T34s don't put any pressure at all.

Also: shreck blob means no AI coming from the OKW player. Because you can't have shrecks and G43 since the munition drain is really high. God forbid you use nades, mines or fuel convertion.

Go to Romeos channel, check the 2v2 tournament and tell me that T34s don't put any pressure at all.

Also: shreck blob means no AI coming from the OKW player. Because you can't have shrecks and G43 since the munition drain is really high. God forbid you use nades, mines or fuel convertion.

Just survive till Obers for AI - that will be around 9mins.
You still can combine Volks blob + Grens blob