About the B-4

Forget to say, I'm talking about 4V4 game. You always seem biased.

Sorry, my mistake, I thought we are talking game modes where balance matters.

To the people saying to use doctrinal stuff: the need to equip one specific commander JUST IN CASE the enemy has another specific commander in his loadout is simply bad design. Players should not be forced into specific loadouts, as this reduces the variety of commanders actually used. There should be no unit and/or ability, doctrinal or not, that can only really be countered by doctrinal units and/or abilities.

Umm, soviets are forced to it in all game modes since day 1.

Good or bad design, it doesn't matter, its clearly intended design despite relic saying you shouldn't need doctrine to counter doctrinal stuff and yet units like JT can't be countered otherwise.

Sorry, my mistake, I thought we are talking game modes where balance matters.



Umm, soviets are forced to it in all game modes since day 1.

Good or bad design, it doesn't matter, its clearly intended design despite relic saying you shouldn't need doctrine to counter doctrinal stuff and yet units like JT can't be countered otherwise.

Exactly. I would go B-4 doctrine when the enemies have JT commander then I have the safety of being able to (try) and counter a JT without having to sacrifice half my army and all of my tanks to try and 'flank' it, only for it to survive and reverse away. Honestly - what else am I supposed to do?

If you nerf B-4 you just remove another tool that soviets are forced to use in team-games to counter the OKW Super-Tanks. I currently only exclusively play OKW in CoH2 along with my friends since the games totally fucked right now and we prefer to steam-roll everyone and have beers and laughs while we play.. one of us always goes Ostheer Luftwaffe commander and so completely counters any B-4 and he also drops fuel drops for us so I can rush King Tiger.. its fucking hilariously broken but no1 complains because there are so little allied players.. so a nerf would be great for us.. but on a neutral note nerfing B-4 will even more break the game

Dude, think... Repair, crew with CE, no popcap penalty and mp drain, he wasted 180-240muni.

Wasted muni? I would say 2-5 mins without precision strike and whole game without vet 3 bonus.
And pop cap penalty is a bug that should be fixed so don;t use such stupid argument.

Wasted muni? I would say 2-5 mins without precision strike and whole game without vet 3 bonus.
And pop cap penalty is a bug that should be fixed so don;t use such stupid argument.

It's not a bug, is a slip on balance. I'm not 100% sure but this happens with other support weapons as well. Thing is B4 is really low.

While you lose veterancy, you don't actually lose the weapon. If you were not so paranoid regarding "OH MY GOD THEY WANT TO NERF MY B4!!", i'm saying that static artillery needs some tweaking.

All people complaining that you don't have non doctrinal solutions to heavy tanks, well yeah, i'm also in favour of increasing non doctrinal solutions!

It's not a bug, is a slip on balance. I'm not 100% sure but this happens with other support weapons as well. Thing is B4 is really low.

While you lose veterancy, you don't actually lose the weapon. If you were not so paranoid regarding "OH MY GOD THEY WANT TO NERF MY B4!!", i'm saying that static artillery needs some tweaking.

All people complaining that you don't have non doctrinal solutions to heavy tanks, well yeah, i'm also in favour of increasing non doctrinal solutions!

There was a thread about this pop thing and for example, ML-20 pop is attached to the weapon, not the crew, so it's the bug. Relic has to swich pop from crew to B-4.
We all know that Relic wont change faction design. That means Soviets have to use t34/76 or SU85 against heavies if choose doctrine without IS/ISU. Nerf B-4 and another you will get another useless commander. What's more, it's very easy to dodge B-4. When you see recon plane, you can be sure that B-4 strike is coming. Just move units out of range or keep them moving till plane disappears.

Aaa, and the best OKW counter against B-4 are falsch. Spawn them behind the lines. Wipe the crew and all vet is gone.

There was a thread about this pop thing and for example, ML-20 pop is attached to the weapon, not the crew, so it's the bug. Relic has to swich pop from crew to B-4.
We all know that Relic wont change faction design. That means Soviets have to use t34/76 or SU85 against heavies if choose doctrine without IS/ISU. Nerf B-4 and another you will get another useless commander. What's more, it's very easy to dodge B-4. When you see recon plane, you can be sure that B-4 strike is coming. Just move units out of range or keep them moving till plane disappears.

Aaa, and the best OKW counter against B-4 are falsch. Spawn them behind the lines. Wipe the crew and all vet is gone.

On 4v4 you MIGHT have to build it outside the base, take Semois, Kharkov, Moscow, etc. All maps on which you build it INSIDE the base.

How is the B-4 even in the same leauge as those units? all do huge amounts of damage, 1 can be wiped by two clicks and 160 muni.

They are not in the same league, but IMO they fall into same category in terms of ability to deal huge damage that is hard to avoid and do that with really low micro-tax. And this I consider rather bad design.

Potential to do a lot of damage:
1) should be tied to resource cost (all of those are expensive, so its good in those terms)
2) dealing the actual damage should be reasonably "micro-taxed", and in case of ISU-152, JT and B4 it is not

I consider this as poor gameplay If you deal damage by clicking precison shots, or leaving JT/ISU in the middle of the map and letting them autosnipe their targets.

I'd love if Relic would do an esports mod taking such stuff into consideration.

Huh so it can survive a stuka strike now? News to me.

And even tough I agree some modifier should prevent static arty from being built in game, doesn't the smaller maps also push the front closer to your base meaning you still have the ability to decrew it using on-map mobile arty?

On 4v4 you MIGHT have to build it outside the base, take Semois, Kharkov, Moscow, etc. All maps on which you build it INSIDE the base.

That's the moment You use walking stuka.
Axis can counter B-4 with single arty strike, stuka bombing, le FH, and many different ways. All you need is to choose doctrine with counter or use your skills. On the other hand, killing Jadgtiger is many times just impossible even with combined arms. I just button, mark target, FAB50 bombing strike, 2 ISUs and Jadgtiger was able to reverse.
My pont is, you have 100% chances to hurt B-4. It will be crew wipe or destroying B-4 and yet many axis players are crying that it cannot be countered.
My advice, take soviets and try to counter well-microed Jadgtiger without B-4.

well your point would have more weight if b4 was ostheer's arsenal and it was soviet's job to counter it because sov is generally forced to choose as soon as possible for shocks, guards for more variety in infantry units. but for ostheer, it is easier to choose doctrines more reactively for stock units do their jobs superbly without doctrinal call ins.

My point has more weight than you think because:
1. There is no doctrinal counter to the B4, so what you say does in no way weaken my point
2. My post was not specifically about the B4 but only used it as an expample for things that are not that well designed in CoH2. Or where did I say only OH suffers from this?

Umm, soviets are forced to it in all game modes since day 1.

Good or bad design, it doesn't matter, its clearly intended design despite relic saying you shouldn't need doctrine to counter doctrinal stuff and yet units like JT can't be countered otherwise.

Well, there is a difference between mounting docs you would want to use anyway and mounting a doc for the sole purpose of maybe countering one sepecific enemy doc you are otherwise fucked against but you will not use otherwise.
But yeah, soviet docs without call-ins mostly suffer from this. And if you read carefully you will notice that my post also included units like the JT and was not limited to OH suffering from this.

That's the moment You use walking stuka.
Axis can counter B-4 with single arty strike, stuka bombing, le FH, and many different ways. All you need is to choose doctrine with counter or use your skills. On the other hand, killing Jadgtiger is many times just impossible even with combined arms. I just button, mark target, FAB50 bombing strike, 2 ISUs and Jadgtiger was able to reverse.
My pont is, you have 100% chances to hurt B-4. It will be crew wipe or destroying B-4 and yet many axis players are crying that it cannot be countered.
My advice, take soviets and try to counter well-microed Jadgtiger without B-4.

If you build a LeFH vs a B4 you are a brave man. Praying to RNG gods vs PS. Yeah sure.
If they get JT is mostly because they want to counter your ISU152. If not, theres little reason to get one because any mass attack from medium tanks means GG. And even if you get into the stage of ISU vs JT, it's a matter of how much wipes you get before you have to pullback and repair.

Again, why bring up other units when we are discussing the B4? It seems like you think i don't care about soviet tiered tanks, JT, or other units.
It seems like you are in panic if Relic dares to touch this unit.

Huh so it can survive a stuka strike now? News to me.

And even tough I agree some modifier should prevent static arty from being built in game, doesn't the smaller maps also push the front closer to your base meaning you still have the ability to decrew it using on-map mobile arty?

It can not. Stuka Bombing Strike does 750 damage and the B4 gun itself, not the crew, have 400 hitpoints. It only decrews the gun if you derp and put the bombing strike a little too far away.

I also saw in another post that you claimed that the B4 does 90% damage to the Jagdtiger (and King Tiger which have the same amount of hitpoints). It's not true. It can never take more than 75% of it's health if you get a clean hit on it.

The B4 does 640 damage and it get a 50% increased damage bonus at vet 3 which sums up to 960. 960/1280 = 0,75 = 75%.

This is a perfect case scenario. The further away the shell lands the less amount of damage you would deal to it.

1. There is no doctrinal counter to the B4

Well, there is a difference between mounting docs you would want to use anyway and mounting a doc for the sole purpose of maybe countering one sepecific enemy doc you are otherwise fucked against but you will not use otherwise.

1. What kind of ínsane buffs do you propose for the T34/SU85 so we can use these units to counter the Jagdtigers? Because we all should be able to counter doctrinal units with stock units, right?

And the other part, you get the B4 because you have problems against Jagdtigers specifically, otherwise you're better off with Katyushas and ISU's.

I always thought of the B4 as similar to axis units such as the jagdtiger, tiger ace, and king tiger: it is one of the pinnacles of soviet power, and meant to be a feared end game unit.

As such, I think it would help if it was treated that way. I would say raise the CP cost to 12, and fix the damn direct fire ability since its a bugged and useless waste of munitions, especially since the precision shot basically does the same thing, costs less, has larger range, and never misses (the direct fire shot does miss and will explode if it hits a shot blocker, like a wooden fence or a blade of grass).

It really is probably the most powerful unit the soviets have (other than the ISU-152) and it was obviously meant make axis players shit their pants when they see it. If you nerf it, it just becomes another boring unit which everyone will probably skim over and forget. If anything, increase its price or CP cost like I mentioned earlier, or do something to lessen some of the RNG.

At least be grateful we dont have to deal with the B4's sister, the 280mm BR5

If you build a LeFH vs a B4 you are a brave man. Praying to RNG gods vs PS. Yeah sure.
If they get JT is mostly because they want to counter your ISU152. If not, theres little reason to get one because any mass attack from medium tanks means GG. And even if you get into the stage of ISU vs JT, it's a matter of how much wipes you get before you have to pullback and repair.

Again, why bring up other units when we are discussing the B4? It seems like you think i don't care about soviet tiered tanks, JT, or other units.
It seems like you are in panic if Relic dares to touch this unit.

Company of Heroes 2 is designed to use doctrinal units against other doctrinal units. We have to deal with that. Allies suffer more from this issue because you cant counter KT, JT or even Panther without IS or ISU when OKW and OST have no problems to deal with IS or ISU with schrecks, Panther, King Tiger. The point is, Axis players get used to choose any doctrine they want because you still have counters for most Allies units. Then B-4 appears with problem that "I cant choose what I want because I have to counter this damn B-4" Get used to it. Allies are taking doctrine to counter Axis units always. Especially USF players that need to take almost alway airborne.

For the ones who are not wanting to 'counter a doctrinal unit with another doctrinal unit' - welcome to COH2.
Commanders are made for a purpose.

COH2 is a rock, paper and scissors game. I would select armored assault if I am facing Obers + Shrek spam (Bulldozer Sherman for da blobs muahah), KT spam I would select Airborne and for JT I would want a B4. You can say the same for Axis commanders.

A few things,

- It costs a fuckload of Muni.
- And the normal Non-precision shot misses most of the time and not a reliable "AT!" conuter to KT or similiar units.
- This unit with its precision ability is the only useful part of a 4$ DLC. Unless you consider KV1 a bad ass spearhead unit lol.
- It can be destroyed quite easily. Assuming you didn't just install the game and have played the tutorial mission.

Allies not allowed to have good units.

Time to nerf everything which can hurt German tanks and blobs.

Allies not allowed to have good units.

Time to nerf everything which can hurt German tanks and blobs.

Yes nerf B4 and nerf ISU. I think the SU85 can clearly handle JTs and Kts by themselves. While we are at it, we should nerf conscripts as well

To the people saying to use doctrinal stuff: the need to equip one specific commander JUST IN CASE the enemy has another specific commander in his loadout is simply bad design. Players should not be forced into specific loadouts, as this reduces the variety of commanders actually used. There should be no unit and/or ability, doctrinal or not, that can only really be countered by doctrinal units and/or abilities.

Welcome to the Soviet faction!

And then people ask for a varied meta...