Shreks need long range accuracy nerf

That someone actually said they rather take shreks than paks is indication something is not as it should be.

Indeed something is not as it should,namely ostheer is weak as shit as usual.Basically old tiger meta persists -but 2 key elements called pak and grens got nerf,while rifles got buff.
Everyone hysterical abt OKW,non one gives a shit about the other axis faction as usual.

The issue with Shreks is the absolutely crazy amount of received accuracy bonuses that Volks grenadiers get with Veterency. They literally get 3 seperate bonuses, when a Volks Squad gets to vet 5 which doesn't take long once they start shrekking things, those Volks because absolutely unkillable. Nothing hits them. The strong AI potential of both Allies Medium and heavy tanks miss time and time again over and over, whilst the Shreks are hitting and penetrating every single time unless it's against an IS-2. To top if off Volks also then have the cheapest reinforce in the game. It's crazy how strong volks blobs are late game and to top it off all you have to is attack move, so it's not like there's any real micro to it.

Shreks on PGrens however are far from over performing because of how easily the PGrens drop models and then how high the reinforce time is. Also PGrens can drop Shreks pretty easily where Volks only drop shreks when the squad is wiped.

The issue with Shreks is the absolutely crazy amount of reduced accuracy that Volks grenadiers get with Veterency. They literally get 3 seperate bonuses, when a Volks Squad gets to vet 5 which isn't doesn't take long once they start shrekking things, those Volks because absolutely unkillable. Nothing hits them. The strong AI potential of both Allies Medium and heavy tanks miss time and time again over and over, whilst the Shreks are hitting and penetrating every single time unless it's against an IS-2. To top if off Volks also then have the cheapest reinforce in the game. It's crazy how strong volks blobs are late game and to top it off all you have to is attack move, so it's not like there's any real micro to it.

Shreks on PGrens however are far from over performing because of how easily the PGrens drop models and then how high the reinforce time is. Also PGrens can drop Shreks pretty easily where Volks only drop shreks when the squad is wiped.

Reduced accuracy does nothing against tanks. a direct hit is incredibly rare and 95% off all shots will miss even without vet. what determines the effectiveness against infantry is 1 scatter 2 aoe

scatter determines if a shot misses and how far the shell goes of its trajectory . if a shot misses a low scatter ensures the shells hits close enough for the aoe to do damage

Reduced accuracy does nothing against tanks. a direct hit is incredibly rare and 95% off all shots will miss even without vet. what determines the effectiveness against infantry is 1 scatter 2 aoe

scatter determines if a shot misses and how far the shell goes of its trajectory . if a shot misses a low scatter ensures the shells hits close enough for the aoe to do damage

Nope, you're thinking of Armour. Armour effects accuracy of small arms but not of more powerful weapons like that from vehicles and tanks. Even MG's generally have some armour penetration against Armour. Look at Shocks, they can walk up to Gren blobs and not drop models but still take lots of damage from Tanks. As far as I'm aware Shocks are the only unit that still have armour, originally pretty much all Wehrmacht infantry had armour back on launch.

I don't know the entire depths of the system but Received accuracy definitely effects tanks and everything else really apart from snipers and explosives as far as I'm aware. No way do Tanks miss so much, generally a shot from a tank will hit a squad out in the open about one third of the time, and that's pretty consistent amongst any medium or heavy tank. I have no idea what you're seeing, Tank Destroyers don't even miss 95% of the time against infantry.

I don't know the entire depths of the system but Received accuracy definitely effects tanks and everything else really apart from snipers and explosives as far as I'm aware. No way do Tanks miss so much, generally a direct shot from a tank will hit a squad out in the open about one third of the time, and that's pretty consistent amongst any medium or heavy tank. I have no idea what you're seeing, Tank Destroyers don't even miss 95% of the time against infantry.

Nope. Some detail here. Most tanks have between 5% (short range) to 2.5 % (long range) accuracy . So how does a tank hits things at all? here where unit size comes in. unit size multiplies the accuracy and most tanks have a unit size of 20 or more(t-34 unit size = 22 so 22 * 2.5 = 55 % to hit at long range). Infantry have the size of 1. so 95% of the shots will miss. a TD's AOE is still their (at 0.5) it doesnt need to hit an infantry member perfectly to kill. or if it misses its scatter can cause you to miss the target and hit the person next to it.

Received accuracy very slightly affects a tanks performance against infantry to the point of non existence.

Nope. Some detail here. Most tanks have between 5% (short range) to 2.5 % (long range) accuracy . So how does a tank hits things at all? here where unit size comes in. unit size multiplies the accuracy and most tanks have a unit size of 20 or more(t-34 unit size = 22 so 22 * 2.5 = 55 % to hit at long range). Infantry have the size of 1. so 95% of the shots will miss. a TD's AOE is still their (at 0.5) it doesnt need to hit an infantry member perfectly to kill. or if it misses its scatter can cause you to miss the target and hit the person next to it.

Received accuracy very slightly affects a tanks performance against infantry to the point of non existence.

This is 100% true, but the recieved accuracy does effect pintle-mgs such as the US M2HB on the sherman and the M20. The M20 should technically be a solid counter to obers, but the recieved accuracy crunches it hard, making it take too long to efficiently kill an ober. the Sherman on the other hand doesn't rely on it's M2HB as much, but it is still a fairly large part of the tanks's AI DPS.

Nerf the long range accuracy of the shreck and then damage of the lmg34.

Nerf the long range accuracy of the shreck and then damage of the lmg34.

Not before fixing OKW, USF and deleting the call-in meta...

This is 100% true, but the recieved accuracy does effect pintle-mgs such as the US M2HB on the sherman and the M20. The M20 should technically be a solid counter to obers, but the recieved accuracy crunches it hard, making it take too long to efficiently kill an ober. the Sherman on the other hand doesn't rely on it's M2HB as much, but it is still a fairly large part of the tanks's AI DPS.

It has some impact. But i really am annoyed that some people act how that vg somehow come with vet 5.
If you see a vet 5 volks then its YOUR mistake. it means you have been feeding the volks squad a healthy diet of tanks as they have not other way to level up to vet 5. remember a VG with shrek and vet 4 has less AI then a vanilla gren squad.

The only thing wrong with the pgrens is the shrek weapon profile. the unit could use a little love thou, I've used them and they could use a little tweak but should still get countered by shock troops.

It has some impact. But i really am annoyed that some people act how that vg somehow come with vet 5.
If you see a vet 5 volks then its YOUR mistake. it means you have been feeding the volks squad a healthy diet of tanks as they have not other way to level up to vet 5. remember a VG with shrek and vet 4 has less AI then a vanilla gren squad.

Grenades. Even if they dont score a kill generate a ton of XP. Unless of course you just mash T everytime they throw a grenade rather then moving and eating a little AOE.

Its harder to Vet Volks to 5 without the Shrek but not all that rare.

It has some impact. But i really am annoyed that some people act how that vg somehow come with vet 5.
If you see a vet 5 volks then its YOUR mistake. it means you have been feeding the volks squad a healthy diet of tanks as they have not other way to level up to vet 5. remember a VG with shrek and vet 4 has less AI then a vanilla gren squad.

I wouldnt really consider it your mistake, it only takes about 10 hits with the panzershreck to vet to vet 5 from vet 0 I believe. This means that as long as you keep your volks in a place where you know they will hit armor (ie protecting the flank of an AT gun or in an ambush position), you can vet to vet 5 pretty quickly.

I think that the best change would be to stop volks from getting vet from using the panzershreck, as this would balance them a bit. If it takes too long to vet them up normally (which I doubt from my experience), then maybe increase the amount of vet they gain from being attacked. This would also reinforce relics design of them being defensive, screening troops. Maybe set to 66% XP from attacking, and 33% XP from taking damage.

I wouldnt really consider it your mistake, it only takes about 10 hits with the panzershreck to vet to vet 5 from vet 0 I believe. This means that as long as you keep your volks in a place where you know they will hit armor (ie protecting the flank of an AT gun or in an ambush position), you can vet to vet 5 pretty quickly.

I think that the best change would be to stop volks from getting vet from using the panzershreck, as this would balance them a bit. If it takes too long to vet them up normally (which I doubt from my experience), then maybe increase the amount of vet they gain from being attacked. This would also reinforce relics design of them being defensive, screening troops. Maybe set to 66% XP from attacking, and 33% XP from taking damage.

I dont agree. if shreks hit a tank it means you have been playing in the okw's player hand. if you are ambushed you have been outplayed the same goes if you attack the okw strong point. Their is simple to much theory crafting to be honest . their are ways of bypassing strong points and exploiting weak points without tanks engaging volks.

and even with vet 5 they remain defensive screening troops as they have no real ai for themselves.

Remember in vCoH when axis always won because homing missile shrek?

Remember how reducing its long range accuracy while preserving it's short range effectiveness suddenly made allied tanks viable, making great strides towards balance?

I would've hoped Relic had learned.

So guys, we keep saying nerfing the shrecks accuracy is not an option, because it would nerf PGs even more, even if that is not even needed.


But hey, it's not like we could specifically nerf the accuracy on the VOLKSGRENADIER panzershreck and the panzergrenadier panzershreck would be left intact.


After all, doesn't it make sense that highly trained elite panzergrenadiers can fire their panzershreck with higher precision than some puny volksgrenadiers, no?

As it stands now, the ridiciluos veterancy bonus for volksgrenadiers also apply to the panzershreck, making it almost 100% accurate.


Nerfing the insane volksgrenadier blobs that happen could be solved in alot of ways -


Nerf volksgrenadier shrecks accuracy
Nerf volksgrenadier veterancy bonuses
Nerf the rate at which shrecked volksgrenadiers get veterancy
Give the panzershreck to sturmpioneers




And of course, it's not like the shreck can be nerfed and OKW just left alone.
The raketenwerfer as an at gun is underperforming just as hard as volksgrenadiers with panzershrecks are overperforming, so that's something to keep in mind.

Their is simple to much theory crafting to be honest...
"remember a VG with shrek and vet 4 has less AI then a vanilla gren squad..."

Use a mirror please. I'm still waiting for that replay were you show us your skills.

Grens 20.81/10.44/7.87
Vet4 Volks with shrecks** 22.15/11.32/8.25*

#Mathplz

Vet3 Gren: 29.14/14.62/11.02*
Vet4 Volks (no shrecks)*: 27.68/14.15/10.31*
Vet3 Cons: 25.10/12.78/6.16

*I didn't take into account the cooldown bonus.
**Shrecks tend to add a HUGE RNG DPS.

Why did i add the cons? Because bananas for scale.
________________________

"The raketenwerfer as an at gun is underperforming just as hard as volksgrenadiers with panzershrecks are overperforming, so that's something to keep in mind."

Basically this.
Eventhough my POV is that theres no easy elegant solution for the problem.

Remember in vCoH when axis always won because homing missile shrek?

Remember how reducing its long range accuracy while preserving it's short range effectiveness suddenly made allied tanks viable, making great strides towards balance?

I would've hoped Relic had learned.

This.

It was proven about 4637182736 times, together with a dev post that what you said here is completely and utterly wrong.

Assault grens are close range unit. Pgrens are mid range unit-that means mid range is their optimum range, not close range, so you're wrong.


CoH1 had completely different infantry combat dynamic, you can't compare the two and what you ask for as shock troops with much longer range.

Wehr doesn't have CQC inf except AGs, because they do not need it. You have units excelling at long range and mid range, park LMG grens next to Pgrens and nothing short of snipers will be able to move that without heavy losses.

An assault grenadier squad is only available on 1 doctrine. I'm saying panzer grenadiers should be lethal at mid and close range. Assault rifles were great for both historically and they would still not hold up to shocks at close vs close combat because they have 2/3 as many guns firing (would make DPS of single PG model be roughly same as close range model shock) and don't have 1.2x armor.

They wouldn't be spam-able as AI troops because of their expense to build, reinforce and upkeep. I think it is silly to make an assault rifle specialize at mid range only when it is a fully auto weapon just larger caliber and more accurate than contemporary SMG's.

#Mathplz

Vet3 Gren: 29.14/14.62/11.02*
Vet4 Volks (no shrecks)*: 27.68/14.15/10.31*
Vet3 Cons: 25.10/12.78/6.16

*I didn't take into account the cooldown bonus.
**Shrecks tend to add a HUGE RNG DPS.

post your source plz.

post your source plz.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApmrrrPr20ncdGF4VURuYjVGZXlIN3ptbV8tbzRzN0E&usp=drive_web#gid=0

Gren gets +40% accuracy and Volks +69% (double 30%). Thats translate in a pure DPS increase if the initial formula for DPS is correct

((Shot per burst * Shot.Burst Fire before reload) / Total time to fire including reload ) * Damage * Accuracy