Obersoldaten and stuff

So Jaigen, I'm thinking a para squad escorted by a 1 man RE squad, No weapon upgrades of course, because OKW didn't get a weapon upgrade either. I'm going to win right?

Simply use equal amount of mp against them. its hilarious how often i see players throw 2 rifles against 2 obers then loudly complain that obers are op. the only unit that can defeat them are the shocks so i find that balanced.

Except that Paras worth 380 MP + 120 munitions each can't actually fight Obers cost-effectively unless they have a significant vet advantage - and munitions are worth a hell of a lot more than MP, especially to a USF player using that commander.

Paras lay down when they fire their LMGs but they can also shoot while moving. Whether the guy with the LMG lays down or not is irrelevant. It looks a bit silly in case of Obers but that's it.

You're right but, if memory serves me, Paras' accuracy on the move with LMGs is something in the region of 25% of their regular value while Obers get something closer to 75%. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I love how the only ones defending this unit fail to make thier player cards public

Except that Paras worth 380 MP + 120 munitions each can't actually fight Obers cost-effectively unless they have a significant vet advantage - and munitions are worth a hell of a lot more than MP, especially to a USF player using that commander.

They if they stand in cover they win against obers ot in cover. if they have a issue use suppressive firepower. Ammo cost is not really relevant usf only has worthwhile AI upgrades. i dont look on the cost of the squad but the cost of each individual soldier and popcap. its 28 mp vs 50 which makes the paratrooper a lot more effective. having such weapon upgrades is a boon as you pour 2 resources into AI.

The only issue obers have that at vet 4 they become nearly indestructible. but considering what you need to do get to vet 4 the allies where already losing anyway

replay please. i need to see this 6 con strat and vs which players.

penals need a long range buff definitely, they need something to justify their cost. i think they could use rifle's long range dps as a start.

http://www.coh2.org/replay/27374/conscript-spam-is-viable#

there you go

Againts top 30 ostheer player , is that enough?

Except that Paras worth 380 MP + 120 munitions each can't actually fight Obers cost-effectively unless they have a significant vet advantage - and munitions are worth a hell of a lot more than MP, especially to a USF player using that commander.

If you invest 120 MU into Paras you get a squad that is superior to any other infantry squad and slightly disadvantaged against Obers.

I think that's fine if you take a look at the basic infantry units of each faction. Rifles are the strongest AI inf to begin with, whereas volks are....quite the opposite.

OKW starts with Sturms that are strong combined with a Kubel. By the time Obers arrive Allies have lots of stuff to counter a Kubel (the Kubel probably got destroyed some time ago) so there's no HMG supporting Volks or Sturms against rifles/paras.

Volks are AT + meatshield and Sturms are weaker PGrens without any AT so they become a repair unit more or less. Using them as combat unit is still possible but they are basically the same as Obers, 100% AI, so I don't count them as a good support unit for Obers.

What I want to say is that Obers are supposed to be a thread to inf because OKW does not have any strong AI inf that is non-doctrinal in the mid-late game.

Obers are strong vs inf and that's it. It's not like they are invulnerable to explosives. They definitely have a counter which is either inf (if you outnumber / flank them) or indirect fire, mines, demos or vehicles.

If Obers get supported by AT then you have to combine your forces as well.

You're right but, if memory serves me, Paras' accuracy on the move with LMGs is something in the region of 25% of their regular value while Obers get something closer to 75%. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah, that's right.

I have no problem with reducing their moving accuracy. I really don't care about it. They deal more DPS at long range so I just keep them there. I mean, there's no need for Obers to move towards the enemy.

Para M1919A6 can moving fire but got .25 Accuracy from normal
and MG34 moving fire with .75 Accuracy from normal
and Damage per hit 8 and Rate of fire same LMG42 (mean They shot all vital hit ? and this gun Rate of fire 1200 per min?)

I love how the only ones defending this unit fail to make thier player cards public

Because This unit is balanced

Because This unit is balanced

if by balanced you mean A-move-wipe-longrange-and-suppress then yes, the time it takes them to kill models is insane(aak so very short).

I wonder how people can defend this unit so dramatically, when the weapon itself is a gamechanger, just look what happens when a riflemen or shocktroop picks up that lollmg xD

Obers are fine, their vet isn't...

The vet is ok with the exception of vet 4....

I don´t like threads like these. I´m pretty confident that at some point Obers will go the same way as PGs and won´t be seen again, because of the constant nagging.

I still don´t build PGs. They never ever went useful again - or at least not as useful as LMG Grens. Even the buffs after their ridiculously underpowered state didn´t achieve this and with the new infantry grouping you are now giving away free vet and Schrecks.

if by balanced you mean A-move-wipe-longrange-and-suppress then yes, the time it takes them to kill models is insane(aak so very short).

I wonder how people can defend this unit so dramatically, when the weapon itself is a gamechanger, just look what happens when a riflemen or shocktroop picks up that lollmg xD

See? we are agreeing it is balanced, it isnt that hard

Since people were asking for replays on how to deal with Obers, I've just uploaded one featuring no shortage of them being decimated (and decimating us back...). Keyword on how to deal with them: AOE!

Also features lots of ultralategame battles with big cats, Jacksons, and a very, very narrow ending...
http://www.coh2.org/replay/27378/2v2-wfa-extravaganza

I love that this thread is still going on

double snipers problem solved

This post is more about LMGs in General and stuff that makes this game piss me off.

1. Obersoladaten- I don't care how expensive it is, it is not ok to have a unit that completely negates infantry thats just bad design, seriously everything melts to its LMG even in green cover, we're talking about a unit that can fight HMG's head on. Its especially worst for Soviets then Americans because their core infantry is alot weaker and doesn't have any way to scale in to the mid/late game. Guards use to be ok against them then the dp was nerfed (lol) because we all know Guards use to be op, shocks are very situational against obers, even with smoke grenades you will still probably lose because chances are the ober squad isn't alone and/or its on a open ground giving the obers time to reposition and shred shocks. Snipers would be ok, but once again people these days just blob obers with another squad and with volks/pfusiliers and snipers are useless vs blobs. Tanks are supposedly their weakness, but thats not the case because shrek volks blobs and reketen werfers combined with low health pool and armor of allied tanks means that obers won't really be effected by armor. Americans its not so bad because rifle men are pretty good and bars are getting buffed and airborn with m1919 or riflemen with m1919 are pretty good vs obers, but it is still something that needs to be looked at.

2. LMG- even with the so called "nerf" lmgs are still king of the battlefield as they have been since march, Every faction except the soviets, has a non doc lmg so they get shafted in this department (lets face it no one is going to be cautious about guards with dp's, and they're doctrinal) has a good lmg, the mg42, m34, and the bar. So they pretty much get to attack move every where with little to no micro requirements, while soviets have to use cheesy gimicks like maxim spam, sniper abuse, and the isu152. If relic gave the soviets a decent all round infatry the scales well in the mid/late game people wouldn't have to deal with constant abuse and come to the forums and cry how op snipers and the isu 152 are. Its not fair or fun to have to micro infantry around all the time while your opponent can just mow you down with his lmgs.



3. Teirs- In general the only faction that has a shitty tier design is the soviets( Agian), although i think ost t4 is still to expansive, but its espically bad for the soviets because it cost 120 fuel and 230 mp for t3 and t4 and soemthing like 120 seconds to build them. To make matters worst they all have lack luster units, the t34 has bad armor and health, its ROF was recently nerfed and it gets stomped by okw all of the time because of volks blobs and pumas (Puma is ridiculous by the way) against ost it not as bad, but its not worth using it against them ether, I can't even remember the last time I seen some one use it. The t70 is a good unit but comes to late, you might as well get a t34 for 30 more fuel, and the m5 haltrack is not worth it, the aa upgrade is decent but the unit it self just isnt worth it because it comes to late to, and delays a t34, so its in the same boat as the t70. t4 has the su76 which is just lol, the su85 has been consistently nerfed over the past year, while we seen the panther buffed recently and blitzkreig buffed as well, its time to give the su85 the buff its needs to remain competitive 120 fuel for a unit that has only at ability and its lacklust at that, it seems to like missing or just doesnt like to penetrate, the katyusha is a ok unit i seen it do ok in some games and awful in others.
t1 has snipers which are fine imo, because they are the only unit that kills something, penals are in a wierd spot I've seen people use them but they just aren't worth it they lack any long range dps and they dont have the armor of shocks to duke it out in close range with infantry, or any useful utility like at nades, penals should be buffed to be a long range unit. M3 is fine. In t2 I never liked the Maxmim design, even since closed beta i hated it, I want a area of denial HMG, but I guess its fine as it is currently, apart form it not retreating when ever a squad member dies, but that seems to be fixed in the beta. The soviet mortar is the worst mortar in the game its bad Rof and the accuracy doesn't seem to be any better than the ostheer mortar, speaking of the ostheer mortar, its ROF is way to high its as bad if not worst when a pak reaches vet3, the zis is the worst at gun in the game just because it gets an artillary barrage that not even that good, its suppose to be an at gun so why does it have some thing that fit its role? It wouldn't be so bad if the barrage was acutally good, The pak has stun rounds, 57mm has 70 range and ap rounds and the 43 has camo and can go in buildings, the zis? nothing not only that its rof is just bad and with the nerf to its vet 1 ability its a pain to use.



3. Cons LOL the king of kings, I'm going to dwell on this its been said time and time again, but I'll say this forcing players to play a faction with an infantry unit that cost 240mp and with 6 men that negates its so called " cheaper" myth that doesn't exist is bad faction design, they just end up bleeding you man power mid/late game because they don't do anything, they're just there to throw at nades at that point.


4. Commanders again this has been said time and time again, the commander system is bland and boring, I hate to say this but why would you dumb down the coh1 commander system? it was perfect, just building on top of it and improving it, not only that alot of the commanders are simply terrible and need a over haul. Another user whiteflash made a perfect example of how the coh2 commander system should've been I can't find it though.


5.Call ins- Soviets being the main offender of this because of their bad stock units, Just revert them back to how it was in beta, for example the t34/85 was unlocked at 8 cp and you had to build t3 and build them from that, its a simple solution to this problem and will help solve alot of the core problems the sovets have with there stock units.

Edit

4. magic- I forgot about this point as well, units like falls and JLI popping out of buildings has to go, I don't know who thought that was a good idea , but it has to stop.

I'm sorry, dude; but this is basically a "Learn to Play" scenario, at its finest. I'm going to address several of your "key points", please feel more than free to correct me (provided you can do so in a factual manner), if I am mistaken:

1. Obersoldaten are what is known as "Hardcounter", which I'm sure if you already know/can guess, is completely intentional and is implemented into the game with the mindset that there are other components to this unit that make it more then balanced. You say that (manpower) cost is not a factor, but if you ask any player (especially others who are more experienced than you or myself) the cost of a unit is CRITICAL to how it is utilized in combat initiatives. I doubt any experienced player be bum-rushing a 400 manpower, lmg-equipped (and loseable) unit just like you would a Volksgrenadier. Also, NO INFANTRY can attack a well-placed HMG team head on, unless the said individual is pointing it in the opposite direction of the infantry. And I have no idea what you're talking about, in terms of "Allies have infantry that are worse than Axis", please tell me more about Rifle spam and being able to pic a commander that potentially spawns Vet. 2 Rifleman as early as one minute in the game. I strongly feel that you don't take the gaming mechanics and combat maneuvering components into consideration (or as much as you should). There are so many things that I haven't mentioned that can factor into why you think these guys are "OP", when in reality, you just need to figure out a viable strategy to counter them. I play both Allies AND Axis, and yes, this game could use work, but there currently isn't anything in the game that is absolutely "broken", as you would want to make most people think.

2. In regards to your "complaints" about the Soviet Conscripts, you couldn't be farther from the truth. A six man squad that can up-close WRECK Grenadiers, and throw a variety of grenades (molotovs, AT, and others if selecting a specific commander), that is also far cheaper to reinforce and faster to get back into combat, is by no means "UP". Again, this is an issue that arises from players who either have just bought the game, or cannot grasp combat maneuvering and game mechanics. If you try to combat Grenadiers at range, where the Grenadiers have range superiority, then OF COURSE you will get wrecked. It's all about manipulating the battlefield to your advantage. The Soviets are by no means "under-performing", the only faction I could say needs a decent amount of work is US Forces, since they currently do not have any late game (heavy) armor.

3. All of the call-in units that can be spawned through ambient buildings are completely fine. Again, there are simple ways to counter spamming things out of buildings. With the newest patches, destroying buildings has never been easier. Plus, any decent player will plant a mine right outside the entrance(s) of the buildings, and that will immediately solve any problems with that issue. All four factions have units that can spawn somewhere directly on the battlefield (OKW: Jaegers, Falls | Soviets: Partisans | Wehrmacht: Stormtroopers | US Forces: Paratroopers). If you're going to tell me that all four factions should either lose that doctrinal ability, or ALL of them are "OP", please explain why.

I'm sorry, dude; but this is basically a "Learn to Play" scenario, at its finest. I'm going to address several of your "key points", please feel more than free to correct me (provided you can do so in a factual manner), if I am mistaken:

1. Obersoldaten are what is known as "Hardcounter", which I'm sure if you already know/can guess, is completely intentional and is implemented into the game with the mindset that there are other components to this unit that make it more then balanced. You say that (manpower) cost is not a factor, but if you ask any player (especially others who are more experienced than you or myself) the cost of a unit is CRITICAL to how it is utilized in combat initiatives. I doubt any experienced player be bum-rushing a 400 manpower, lmg-equipped (and loseable) unit just like you would a Volksgrenadier. Also, NO INFANTRY can attack a well-placed HMG team head on, unless the said individual is pointing it in the opposite direction of the infantry. And I have no idea what you're talking about, in terms of "Allies have infantry that are worse than Axis", please tell me more about Rifle spam and being able to pic a commander that potentially spawns Vet. 2 Rifleman as early as one minute in the game. I strongly feel that you don't take the gaming mechanics and combat maneuvering components into consideration (or as much as you should). There are so many things that I haven't mentioned that can factor into why you think these guys are "OP", when in reality, you just need to figure out a viable strategy to counter them. I play both Allies AND Axis, and yes, this game could use work, but there currently isn't anything in the game that is absolutely "broken", as you would want to make most people think.

2. In regards to your "complaints" about the Soviet Conscripts, you couldn't be farther from the truth. A six man squad that can up-close WRECK Grenadiers, and throw a variety of grenades (molotovs, AT, and others if selecting a specific commander), that is also far cheaper to reinforce and faster to get back into combat, is by no means "UP". Again, this is an issue that arises from players who either have just bought the game, or cannot grasp combat maneuvering and game mechanics. If you try to combat Grenadiers at range, where the Grenadiers have range superiority, then OF COURSE you will get wrecked. It's all about manipulating the battlefield to your advantage. The Soviets are by no means "under-performing", the only faction I could say needs a decent amount of work is US Forces, since they currently do not have any late game (heavy) armor.

3. All of the call-in units that can be spawned through ambient buildings are completely fine. Again, there are simple ways to counter spamming things out of buildings. With the newest patches, destroying buildings has never been easier. Plus, any decent player will plant a mine right outside the entrance(s) of the buildings, and that will immediately solve any problems with that issue. All four factions have units that can spawn somewhere directly on the battlefield (OKW: Jaegers, Falls | Soviets: Partisans | Wehrmacht: Stormtroopers | US Forces: Paratroopers). If you're going to tell me that all four factions should either lose that doctrinal ability, or ALL of them are "OP", please explain why.

This coming from you is delicious.

This coming from you is delicious.

Honestly, I understand where he is coming from, regardless of how wrong it is, I have said and been through similar circumstances. It's all about being able to adjust and adapt. I've actually improved a lot and am starting to live stream regularly, ha ha. Along with a few losses here and there, I've made significant progress (still have a long ways to go, however).

Because This unit is balanced

Just like ISU.