Obersoldaten and stuff

Instead of nerfing them I'd like to see a price adjustment so they cannot be spammed without having to sacrifice something. 400 MP with an LMG32 is a steal for the performance they give. I feel a cost to upgrade to an LMG32 is warranted (less munitions spent on Volks shreks now) and the reinforcement cost increased. I've seen enough tactics now where spamming Volks with Shrek's and Ober's will carry them over to a King Tiger. Meh.

For me most annoying thing about obers is that most of their dps comes from one model with mg34. So squad can retain firepower while losing two or three of its members. IMO Relic should tone down mg34 and give rifle obers more accuracy or maybe LJI similar crits to compencate.

To much butthurt comments over here. Time to move around and wait until next butthurt topic shows up.

It is amazing how people consider obers op forgeting there are other units fielded by armies not affected by any resource penalties, that can be countered by vehicles only also. What about shock troops? Yes, they are close range units, but that is why they have that armor and the smoke grenade. They are as effective as obers there is no doubt about it, still you are crying a river of tears about obers. They were nerfed once, ok, that was needed. But now?! This is an exageration. What is this hate against everything OKW has?
Once and for all, admit that soviets are the easiest way to victory, not OKW. OKW is comming second. All these whinings about OKW OP units and soviet "weak" units are ridiculous.

Except Obers do not suffer from the penalty in any way. 400 mp for OKW is the same as 400 mp for anyone else. That's why they at least needs a muni cost on their LMG from hell.

And as someone who uses both units, shocks are not in the same league; not only are they doctrinal, they are short-ranged and require the use of smoke and micro all the time to properly use against good player. Obers? against anything but a big blob or a tank, a-move and automatically win. They can't do anything to tanks, but OKW has extremely good anti-tank in all their tiers as well as shrecks on their basic squad, while Obers are all the anti-infantry firepower they will ever need.

Except Obers do not suffer from the penalty in any way. 400 mp for OKW is the same as 400 mp for anyone else. That's why they at least needs a muni cost on their LMG from hell.

And as someone who uses both units, shocks are not in the same league; not only are they doctrinal, they are short-ranged and require the use of smoke and micro all the time to properly use against good player. Obers? against anything but a big blob or a tank, a-move and automatically win. They can't do anything to tanks, but OKW has extremely good anti-tank in all their tiers as well as shrecks on their basic squad, while Obers are all the anti-infantry firepower they will ever need.

Bullshit. The strength of obers or Shocks is completely dependant on terrain and how you use them. and you obviously use shocks the wrong way.

Instead of nerfing them I'd like to see a price adjustment so they cannot be spammed without having to sacrifice something. 400 MP with an LMG32 is a steal for the performance they give. I feel a cost to upgrade to an LMG32 is warranted (less munitions spent on Volks shreks now) and the reinforcement cost increased. I've seen enough tactics now where spamming Volks with Shrek's and Ober's will carry them over to a King Tiger. Meh.

are you shitting me? obers cost 50 a piece with shocktrooper protection and essentially a slightly better gren rifle. the reason they cost 50 mp is because they come pre equipped with the lmg34 otherwise they would be utterly cost ineffective.

@Jaigen - How would you deal with the Ober problem? Or are you under the impression they are fine as is?

Oh please. By 1944 (which OKW is based on) all german "elite" soldiers were either dead or maimed and in hospitals. Especially considering that this is based on the battle of the bulge specifically, AFTER Bagration.


There was nothing elite about the german army in 1944. Most were conscripts thrown into the meatgrinder with little training, like everyone else.

If anything, ostheer should have better quality troops since they are based of earlier in the war.

You're utterly wrong regarding your history of the German military in WW2. By 1944 which the OKW are based off of, the German military was extremely battle hardened, experienced and had access to a wide array of high tech weapons. My evidence is the countless battles post-Battle of Stalingrad where the Nazi's fended off British, Russian and American troops countless times and inflicted much more casualties on them. Operation Market Garden is a perfect example of the expertise of the Nazi military and how superior training, equipment, tactics and infantry can turn the tide of battle and achieve victory.

Anyways, the Obersoldaten reflect the extremely battle hardened troops that fought in both Western and Eastern Europe. There was no doubt that among the Nazi military in 44' they had troops among their ranks who fought in Western Europe as well as Russia.

Also, for people who are saying Shocks can't beat Obersoldatens, you do realise it requires micro on your part, right? Allied players seem to want the Shocks to function the exact same as the Obersoldatens, but what they don't realise is that CoH2 is an asymmetrical rts game; this means that each unit has certain strengths and weaknesses, and has to be used a certain way in order to utilise it's maximum effectiveness.

leave history outa this plz

if u wanna talk history give usf shermans for 10 fuel.

arty for 15 muni

and occasionally a pair of p47's will come and kill axis tanks

You're utterly wrong regarding your history of the German military in WW2. By 1944 which the OKW are based off of, the German military was extremely battle hardened, experienced and had access to a wide array of high tech weapons. My evidence is the countless battles post-Battle of Stalingrad where the Nazi's fended off British, Russian and American troops countless times and inflicted much more casualties on them. Operation Market Garden is a perfect example of the expertise of the Nazi military and how superior training, equipment, tactics and infantry can turn the tide of battle and achieve victory.

Uh, So I guess it had nothing to do with bad allied intelligence, an over stretched and badly supplied combat force, paratroopers fighting armoured divisions or the good planning by Von Rundstedt and Model after all...

Also, for people who are saying Shocks can't beat Obersoldatens, you do realise it requires micro on your part, right? Allied players seem to want the Shocks to function the exact same as the Obersoldatens, but what they don't realise is that CoH2 is an asymmetrical rts game; this means that each unit has certain strengths and weaknesses, and has to be used a certain way in order to utilise it's maximum effectiveness.

This is true. The biggest asymmetry between the factions seems to be "A move all units" versus "20cpm per unit fielded". You can read that as "no skill" versus "skill".

Also, for people who are saying Shocks can't beat Obersoldatens, you do realise it requires micro on your part, right? Allied players seem to want the Shocks to function the exact same as the Obersoldatens, but what they don't realise is that CoH2 is an asymmetrical rts game; this means that each unit has certain strengths and weaknesses, and has to be used a certain way in order to utilise it's maximum effectiveness.

I can't speak for others, but I believe people's issue is that there is not currently asymmetric balance, which is really the key issue. Shocks currently only have 1 area where they are better than obers, and that is in very close quarters. They also have slightly better survivability at vet 0, given their armor and 6 man squad, but this then tips over to Obers having better survivability at higher vet with self healing, reduced accuracy, and perma-sprint. Obers also have better vet, better nades, more abilities, and better long and mid range performance. They also have better short range performance if you get stg-44s doctrinally. All the while, Obers themselves are not doctrinal units like Shocks are, which means any OKW player can get obers, while any Soviet player who goes shocks is pidgeon-holed into a few doctrines.

That is not asymmetric balance.

On the vast majority of maps, this means that even with less micro or skill of use, Obers will inflict more damage and be all around more effective units than shocks. Not in every case, I'd rather have shocks than vanilla obers on Stalingrad 1v1 for instance, but 9 times out of 10 Obers will perform better than shocks.

Compare this to something like the T34 - Panzer 4 dynamic. About half the time I'd prefer a T34, and about half the time I'd prefer the Panzer 4. Same with Pak vs ZiS, Tiger vs IS2, 221/2 vs M20, Flame HT vs Flak HT, Cons vs Grens etc. That's asymmetrical balance, even though they perform differently, their effectiveness over a long period of time, through numerous games will be about the same.

On the contrary, Obers vs Shocks looked at on a variety of maps, game modes, faction match ups, and everything else, over a long period of time, Obers will be the more effective unit. That is not asymmetric balance.

Bullshit. The strength of obers or Shocks is completely dependant on terrain and how you use them. and you obviously use shocks the wrong way.

Oh, that's rich, why don't you stop hiding your playercard if you're going to start the L2P arguments?

Shocks are better on urban maps (unless infrared STG44s enter the picture I suppose), which I hate and avoid like the plague. In literally every other situation, Obers are better because they don't have to waste time and men closing in to start killing stuff. Their veterancy is also much better and makes them damn near immune to small arms by vet 4, which is completely retarded.

Uh, So I guess it had nothing to do with bad allied intelligence, an over stretched and badly supplied combat force, paratroopers fighting armoured divisions or the good planning by Von Rundstedt and Model after all...


.

The question was had the germans an army of battle hardened soldiers on the day of the Ardennes offensive. The answer is yes and burts is talking shit. that said it was also the last veterans they had on the western front and when the army was wiped out the allies found no significant resistance any longer. And that was history for today

I dont believe obers are an issue. the only infantry that cost as much: shocks can definitely beat them. as can rifleman with upgrades.

Its also needed. despite what people are saying volks are not efficient AI. sure they stand their ground to scripts but when under pressure of any other infantry they melt. and then is the lack of a easy to get generalist and a fuel penalty and obers are in a fine spot.

Oh, that's rich, why don't you stop hiding your playercard if you're going to start the L2P arguments?

Shocks are better on urban maps (unless infrared STG44s enter the picture I suppose), which I hate and avoid like the plague. In literally every other situation, Obers are better because they don't have to waste time and men closing in to start killing stuff. Their veterancy is also much better and makes them damn near immune to small arms by vet 4, which is completely retarded.

Did you just seriously say you avoid cc map as allies? this is not a minor l2p issue its HUGE l2p issue. urban maps is where the allies practically thrive.

On the contrary, Obers vs Shocks looked at on a variety of maps, game modes, faction match ups, and everything else, over a long period of time, Obers will be the more effective unit. That is not asymmetric balance.

Asymmetric balance means that some aspects of a faction is going to be more efficient then the other faction. in the case for the OKW they have superior infantry. this is to compensate for their piss poor AT gun fuel penalties and being compromised out of an army of specialist.

It is amazing how people consider obers op forgeting there are other units fielded by armies not affected by any resource penalties...

this again?

resource penalty is countered by super cheap teching, default scavenging ability, ability to get to vet 5 and probably more that i can't think of right now.

back to topic: i think obers is too much. and 400mp isn't too much for a unit that comes with lmg34 for 'free'. but i also think paratroopers with double 1919s are ridiculous, too.

the way they just disintegrates units at max range is disgusting. and i think that is the biggest problem. they are stupefying at long range, thus they will be well-supported most of the times.

that isn't the case for shocks; since they have to close in, it is easier for them to get isolated so you have to think when using this unit. not with these lmg34 or double 1919 wielding monsters. just shove them in a green cover and any units walking into their range is gonna get ripped.

Did you just seriously say you avoid cc map as allies? this is not a minor l2p issue its HUGE l2p issue. urban maps is where the allies practically thrive.

OK, stop for a second.

Click on my playercard.

Probably unlike you, I play all 4 factions.

Thus, I do not select a map based on how likely I am to win in it, but on how much I like it.

Allies ARE a bit favored on close quarters map. I still tick them off because I hate close-quarters map as a rule in every Relic game.

This has nothing to do with a L2P issue, and everything with me using the map veto feature to not play on maps I don't like. I'm not sure how much clearer I can explain that.

And for the last time, until you show your own playercard you have no business using the l2p argument on myself or, really, absolutely anyone else. Until you show it, I will assume you aren't good at the game and are as biased in your playtime as you are in these forums. As such, I'll stop wasting my time and will no longer answer you anymore, since you have absolutely nothing worthwhile to contribute.

I can see Obers getting a price change to 340MP and having to pay 70 Munis for the LMG34, but anymore than that and the unit just won't be worth it. People saying Obers need to pay 100 munis for the LMG34 are forgetting that having to invest that many munis into an AI-only unit will make it harder for the OKW players getting Shreks on their Volks. So Shrek-less Volks and AI-only Obers would mean Allied vehicles would just roll all over the OKW.

Guys... Obers are useless against vehicles. Yes they are awesome anti-infantry infantry but they literally have nothing against vehicles. Why engage infantry against an anti-infantry unit? It's like trying to shoot an ostwind down with Riflemen. Or trying to kill a T34 with PGS with not shreks. Or trying to attack the captain with the Walking Stuka - you get the idea.

It's been said before but this game has asymmetrical balance. Also if you are looking for winning infantry vs infantry I often engage Obers with shocks and win (tip: use smoke). Flanking with engineers with flamers also works (not by themselves mind you). Maxims to pin them so you can close the distance, etc. There are soft-counter solutions but the most obvious one is any sort of anti-infantry vehicle.

Anyway, I don't personally have a problem with Obers right now. They maybe could get a cost increase but at the same time I feel like OKW don't have much else for anti-infantry that isn't doctrinal.