Obersoldaten and stuff

I am not forgeting. I just assume that the body armor + extra 2 models and smoke grenade compensate for that. Am I wrong?

To put it bluntly, yes.

Shocks body armor is about equal to -33% received accuracy against weapons with penetration values of 1 (SMGs, Infantry rifles) and less against weapons with more than 1 penetration (HMGs, LMGs, Vehicle mounted MGs). Obers have a base -30% received accuracy.

Now vet, Shocks get one survivability boost of -29% received accuracy. Obers get two -29% modifiers. So each Ober model is ~29% more survivable (give or take a little bit) than a Shock Model (with Shocks being vet 3 and Obers being vet 4).

Then damage. When a shock model dies the squad loses a flat 1/6 of its damage. With Obers about 70% of the damage (at long range) is on the LMG model. Meaning the Ober squad will put out most of its effective damage with only one model left. The ratio of LMG/Rifle damage for obers of course shifts more towards the rifles as range decreases, but even at close range the LMG model does almost as much damage as a Shock model. Obers also deal good damage at all ranges, while Shocks do basically 0 until they hit range 10. This means a player can retreat before Shocks can really do any damage.

Obers also gain the ability to suppress infantry at vet 4, further skewing any infantry combat in their favor. They gain sprint at vet 5, which doesn't help them directly in combat but does have tactical advantages.

Oh and Obers also have a smoke grenade, that slows+damages unit caught in it (gain the ability at vet 1)

Admins, can you add a button "Ignore replys with historical BS", so we can discuss this game not WW2?

You are either forgetting or ignore one big part of the shocks discussion... Their range.

Thats why they have smoke grenades and much more firepower and pointblank range.

Well I don't think that long range units with efficient DPS are necessarely a problem. The german factions design is to be more efficient at long range. Soviets for instance, have no such advantage but in compensation they have larger squads. I don't know, this seems logical to me. Now the quantity of micro needed to play both sides is debatable, some consider is harder with allied and others it's harder with germans. I personally think the hardest factions to micro are ostheer and USF but this is my opinion.
I understand some players' frustration towards obers but let's not push this to extreme. All armies in COH2 have the proper tools to win, but some of them are requiring more skill for victory. But then, we have to consider the fact that the player base does not contain only people who play 4 hours a day every day. So there must be factions for them too. For instance, soviets . Sorry, I could't abstain. Joke.

It's not about being design to be good at distance, it's a matter of model sniping while retaining high dps on few models due to upgrades.
I think it's a problem when you have to heavily rely on models with upgraded weapons rather than on the squad itself.
USF is frustrating, OH is a surviving game.

USF: i found annoying how your late game has to be top notch and you have to either survive the Kubel early game and take a lead against OH early game which lets you have a swift mid late game.

OH: get LMGs, drag the game to the late game, win by good pak/mg control.

Breaking news: Troops with machine guns perform better versus infantry than squads armed with rifles.

Why shouldn´t they? Germans relied heavily on machine guns in every squad. It´s nice to see that implemented ingame. Why would I build a machine gun if it didn´t boost the performance drastically.

The only problem I have with LMGs is that Obersoldaten can fire on the move. They should be stationary like Grens.

In my opinion if opponent dont spam obers (3-4 obers, its about 2v2) You can fight ag them, but its dosnt mean that thay dont need nerf, obers need change like and falschejagers. Its pretty fun that obers kill infantry faster than KV-8 . . And this shotting at the move . But OKW need obers, becouse rifle/para blobs is very cool . But this blobs Relic, blobs, blobs, blobs . Give the units in blob somthing like the negative stats

snip

I like you, you have owned him Cruzz style.

The only problem I have with LMGs is that Obersoldaten can fire on the move. They should be stationary like Grens.

And that is the only sensible "fix" they should receive.

To put it bluntly, yes.

Shocks body armor is about equal to -33% received accuracy against weapons with penetration values of 1 (SMGs, Infantry rifles) and less against weapons with more than 1 penetration (HMGs, LMGs, Vehicle mounted MGs). Obers have a base -30% received accuracy.

Now vet, Shocks get one survivability boost of -29% received accuracy. Obers get two -29% modifiers. So each Ober model is ~29% more survivable (give or take a little bit) than a Shock Model (with Shocks being vet 3 and Obers being vet 4).

Then damage. When a shock model dies the squad loses a flat 1/6 of its damage. With Obers about 70% of the damage (at long range) is on the LMG model. Meaning the Ober squad will put out most of its effective damage with only one model left. The ratio of LMG/Rifle damage for obers of course shifts more towards the rifles as range decreases, but even at close range the LMG model does almost as much damage as a Shock model. Obers also deal good damage at all ranges, while Shocks do basically 0 until they hit range 10. This means a player can retreat before Shocks can really do any damage.

Obers also gain the ability to suppress infantry at vet 4, further skewing any infantry combat in their favor. They gain sprint at vet 5, which doesn't help them directly in combat but does have tactical advantages.

Oh and Obers also have a smoke grenade, that slows+damages unit caught in it (gain the ability at vet 1)

If you want to speak about squad models individualy, let's compare it a little: OS model armor: 1.0. ShocK model armor: 3.0. Os model HP - 80. Shock model HP - 80. OS model mp cost: 100. Shock model mp cost: 65. Os population: 2.0. Shock squad population: 1.66.

looking at what you said and at these figures, I dunno, but they are looking pretty balanced to me!

@Katitof - Ummm I wouldn't say so. He still needs to work on it.

To others: Guys, I won't deny that USF needs some buffs, but all these "nerf Obersoldaten" whynings are pissin me off.

Time for you to grow up.

honestly if u think obers are fine. u have limited experience fighting against them.

Plz enlighten us on what we are doing wrong? What should we do to defeat obers. since you seem to have all the answers

If you want to speak about squad models individualy, let's compare it a little: OS model armor: 1.0. ShocK model armor: 3.0. Os model HP - 80. Shock model HP - 80. OS model mp cost: 100. Shock model mp cost: 65. Os population: 2.0. Shock squad population: 1.66.

looking at what you said and at these figures, I dunno, but they are looking pretty balanced to me!

@Katitof - Ummm I wouldn't say so. He still needs to work on it.

Shocks have 1.5 armour, not 3.

Shocks have 1.5 armour, not 3.

Yep, my mistake.

Then I guess figures on COH2 stats are outdated?!

Whatever figures you are using, they are not only outdated, but completely false as they have never had 3 armor to begin with.

The game is designed about combined arms being effective.

If your enemy uses pumas, obersoldaten, HMGs together you likewise need a combined arms army to take that on.

That means at gun, Stuart, rifles with upgrades.

And then the better Micro, positioning and awareness decides the battle.

Therefore 'vehicles' is the proper answer to your obers. If you say 'but the puma' then you simply don't have a army that can respond to all threats and you deserve to lose.

The game is designed about combined arms being effective.

If your enemy uses pumas, obersoldaten, HMGs together you likewise need a combined arms army to take that on.

That means at gun, Stuart, rifles with upgrades.

And then the better Micro, positioning and awareness decides the battle.

Therefore 'vehicles' is the proper answer to your obers. If you say 'but the puma' then you simply don't have a army that can respond to all threats and you deserve to lose.

It doesnt help that OKW equipment is superior to USF's. Obers roll over ALL infantry, removing HMG's and AT guns while OKW armor handles the weak armor. Definitely player's fault for choosing to play USF with units that get countered so easily.

Also, still no justification why LMG34 has twice the DPS as LMG42.

Did i mention for the second time the early game volks with the schrecks bought with the muni OKW doesnt spend on obers? What USF tanks?

Thats why they have smoke grenades and much more firepower and pointblank range.

Last time I've checked, it didn't magically spawned bear traps under axis soldiers foot and they could freely move away from the smoke.

Oh wait, you're talking about AI again? That explains why you never see anything wrong with axis stuff.

this thread makes me want to hide my playercard