Okay, so as you may know, the ISU-152 and jagtiger in the current metagame are absolutely broken.
They needed some kind of a fix.
However, I feel that this fix is not the way it is supposed to be fixed.
First, the whole idea of the patch seemed to be to increase the general responsiveness, usability of units. This was all much needed, and units now feel much more reliable and play is now as a result much more fluid.
However, the ISU-152 and jagtiger received some weird changes. Instead of nerfing them in a normal way, relic decided to nerf them in a rather.. unorthodox matter.
Instead of nerfing the unit, they completely removed the usability of the unit. It is now impossible to hit moving targets and overall makes these units borderline useless. It's basically removing the ability of direct fire and made it only have "attack ground"
I feel that these kind of nerfs go againts the idea of the patch which was to make units feel more responsive.
I think a much more simple solution was to simply nerf the accuracy and AOE on the ISU, and removing the ability for the jagtiger to fire through buildings.
Discuss.
So, lets talk about the ISU-152 and jagtiger changes.
- This thread is locked
23 Oct 2014, 18:38 PM
#1
Posts: 1702
23 Oct 2014, 19:07 PM
#2
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
Just remove Jadgtiger ability to shoot through obstacles and remove ISU AoE.
23 Oct 2014, 19:21 PM
#3
Posts: 292
Strange though... They both got nerfed the same way but they work vastly different. They should just have removed the JT ability to shoot through obstacles and increase reload time of the ISU.
The ISU will be forgotten and the JT will only see daylight in 3v3 and 4v4.
The ISU will be forgotten and the JT will only see daylight in 3v3 and 4v4.
Ade, mein liebes Schätzelein
23 Oct 2014, 19:33 PM
#4
Posts: 431 | Subs: 1
Give it some time and adapt.
23 Oct 2014, 19:40 PM
#5
Posts: 503
in my humble opinion it was stupid to have a powerful unit that could basically just sit behind your forces and chip away at the enemy without little or no attention to it at all.
"automatic" squadwipes and vehicle kills through several buildings was stupid... now you can still wipe squads and kill things behind buildings, but you actually need to do something for it.
and its far from impossible to hit moving vehicles... it just takes practice. or do you master everything you ever do at first try? maybe start a buisness then or invest in stocks
"automatic" squadwipes and vehicle kills through several buildings was stupid... now you can still wipe squads and kill things behind buildings, but you actually need to do something for it.
and its far from impossible to hit moving vehicles... it just takes practice. or do you master everything you ever do at first try? maybe start a buisness then or invest in stocks
23 Oct 2014, 19:41 PM
#6
Posts: 2115 | Subs: 1
If you actually removed the "shooting through buildings" from the Jagdtiger...what would distinguish it from the Elefant??
Although im for a Jagdtiger and ISU nerf.
Although im for a Jagdtiger and ISU nerf.
servant to the vet 5 königskübel
b4 and soviet FHQ enthusiast
fan of the illustrious black prince
b4 and soviet FHQ enthusiast
fan of the illustrious black prince
23 Oct 2014, 19:47 PM
#7
Posts: 14
Well basically now you either divert most of your attention to microing your isu\jagdtiger or controlling the rest of your army. Imo, the former might be viable only in 3v3\4v4 casual games, where these units supposedly caused problems in the first place. Might as well disable movement by right click and map it to WSAD, wouldn't make much of a difference in usability but would certainly make these units much more "skillful". I'm sure all the pro's would appreciate.
TL;DR This was the most retarded "fix" imaginable.
Bonus feature: your isu shots now can impact on shot blockers, since it now shoots like "attack ground" order was given.
TL;DR This was the most retarded "fix" imaginable.
Bonus feature: your isu shots now can impact on shot blockers, since it now shoots like "attack ground" order was given.
23 Oct 2014, 19:49 PM
#8
Posts: 41
If you actually removed the "shooting through buildings" from the Jagdtiger...what would distinguish it from the Elefant??
Although im for a Jagdtiger and ISU nerf.
Stats-wise the Jagdtiger is superior.
1280 vs 1040 hp
525 vs 400 armor
550.0/525.0/500.0 vs 440.0/400.0/360.0 penetration
Also I think it has 10(?) more range than the elephant.
More expensive of course, but you get a stronger vehicle.
Sources:
http://www.coh2-stats.com/vehicles/jagdtiger_sdkfz_186_mp
http://www.coh2-stats.com/vehicles/elefant_sdkfz_184_mp
http://www.coh2-stats.com/ballistic_weapons/jagdtiger_pak_44_128mm_gun_mp
http://www.coh2-stats.com/ballistic_weapons/elefant_88mm_gun_mp
23 Oct 2014, 19:58 PM
#9
Posts: 273
I have tried ISU in the beta. I loved the change. You can still hit moving targets. It is about your ability. Get two of ISU and just ctrl+A then you win. So I ll screw the game.. Now, if you trust on your micro capability, get two of them and micro them. And if you win in this way with ISUs, I ll congrats you. No more complains about how ISU is broken unit.
23 Oct 2014, 20:03 PM
#10
2 Posts: 1108
The elefant can still auto shoot?
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23 Oct 2014, 20:05 PM
#11
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
If you actually removed the "shooting through buildings" from the Jagdtiger...what would distinguish it from the Elefant??
Although im for a Jagdtiger and ISU nerf.
And whats the difference between King Tiger and Tiger? Are You saying that KT should get some gamebreaker ability just to be someway different than Tiger? Same thing.
23 Oct 2014, 20:06 PM
#12
Posts: 503
The elefant can still auto shoot?
yes. i think its fine. it neither wipes squads nor does it shoot through buildings
23 Oct 2014, 20:06 PM
#13
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
Strange though... They both got nerfed the same way but they work vastly different. They should just have removed the JT ability to shoot through obstacles and increase reload time of the ISU.
The ISU will be forgotten and the JT will only see daylight in 3v3 and 4v4.
Yep, you nailed it.
23 Oct 2014, 20:13 PM
#14
Posts: 978
Wait, you have to attack ground with them? I thought they only stopped attacking by themselves and you had to right click on a target so they would fire.
23 Oct 2014, 20:14 PM
#15
Posts: 324 | Subs: 2
It's all your fault kreatiiiiiir!
Joke. I'm not fond of the change. But then again i'm lazy and don't like playing high APM intensive strategy games e.g. SC2.
Whats the problem of the ISU 152? Is is that it one-shots squads effortlessly from far away? Or is the one-shots squads from far away part actually fine and only the effortlessly part is flawed?
I would argue the one-shot part is the problem. No increase in reload time, no decrease in range, no limit to unit count and no increase in the micro requirement will prevent one-shots. The AOE has to be tweaked, as far as i am concerned.
With the current change it will be necessary to hotkey your supertanks and be able to quickly execute the "attack ground/unit" command even in the heat of the battle to get your moneys worth. The way i see it, players with less stellar micro and reflexes will be severely punished, no matter how good their decision making is. Not sure if i like that.
The Jagdtiger can more easily be adjusted, because it is mainly AT. Removing the ability to shoot through buildings or decreasing the range sounds alright. The inherent ability to get stunned could be removed to compensate.
Joke. I'm not fond of the change. But then again i'm lazy and don't like playing high APM intensive strategy games e.g. SC2.
Whats the problem of the ISU 152? Is is that it one-shots squads effortlessly from far away? Or is the one-shots squads from far away part actually fine and only the effortlessly part is flawed?
I would argue the one-shot part is the problem. No increase in reload time, no decrease in range, no limit to unit count and no increase in the micro requirement will prevent one-shots. The AOE has to be tweaked, as far as i am concerned.
With the current change it will be necessary to hotkey your supertanks and be able to quickly execute the "attack ground/unit" command even in the heat of the battle to get your moneys worth. The way i see it, players with less stellar micro and reflexes will be severely punished, no matter how good their decision making is. Not sure if i like that.
The Jagdtiger can more easily be adjusted, because it is mainly AT. Removing the ability to shoot through buildings or decreasing the range sounds alright. The inherent ability to get stunned could be removed to compensate.
http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198041705871
"Axis can STALL2WIN to get to that late game, there is really no hope for USF competitively short of getting the best side of the best USF maps and being an order of magnitude better than your opponent." - SageOfTheSix, after losing to Jesulin's Ostheer on Semoskiy Winter
"Axis can STALL2WIN to get to that late game, there is really no hope for USF competitively short of getting the best side of the best USF maps and being an order of magnitude better than your opponent." - SageOfTheSix, after losing to Jesulin's Ostheer on Semoskiy Winter
23 Oct 2014, 20:24 PM
#16
Posts: 2070
It's all your fault kreatiiiiiir!
Joke. I'm not fond of the change. But then again i'm lazy and don't like playing high APM intensive strategy games e.g. SC2.
Whats the problem of the ISU 152? Is is that it one-shots squads effortlessly from far away? Or is the one-shots squads from far away part actually fine and only the effortlessly part is flawed?
I would argue the one-shot part is the problem. No increase in reload time, no decrease in range, no limit to unit count and no increase in the micro requirement will prevent one-shots. The AOE has to be tweaked, as far as i am concerned.
With the current change it will be necessary to hotkey your supertanks and be able to quickly execute the "attack ground/unit" command even in the heat of the battle to get your moneys worth. The way i see it, players with less stellar micro and reflexes will be severely punished, no matter how good their decision making is. Not sure if i like that.
Great points! I find the ISU very hard ot balance because of its design. It is essentially a huge artillery piece mounted on a mobile platform. It would be weird if it didn't hurt tanks or infantry. It is difficult to find that sweet spot where there is an acceptable amount of damage reached without making the unit OP. The Jagdtiger is a lot more easier to fix because it is mainly an anti-tank vehicle.
The Jagdtiger can more easily be adjusted, because it is mainly AT. Removing the ability to shoot through buildings or decreasing the range sounds alright. The inherent ability to get stunned could be removed to compensate.
Axis doesn't have the best AT options in the game
23 Oct 2014, 20:30 PM
#17
Posts: 4928
The way i see it, players with less stellar micro and reflexes will be severely punished, no matter how good their decision making is. Not sure if i like that.
This is how most of the game already though. Grens got molo'd? Bundle Grenade on Guards? Shock Troops facing LMG's at long range? You lose all of them if you aren't paying any attention. You can master microing a small group all you want, but the rest of your forces will suffer.
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII
> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
23 Oct 2014, 20:32 PM
#18
Posts: 987
It's all your fault kreatiiiiiir!
Joke. I'm not fond of the change. But then again i'm lazy and don't like playing high APM intensive strategy games e.g. SC2.
Whats the problem of the ISU 152? Is is that it one-shots squads effortlessly from far away? Or is the one-shots squads from far away part actually fine and only the effortlessly part is flawed?
I would argue the one-shot part is the problem. No increase in reload time, no decrease in range, no limit to unit count and no increase in the micro requirement will prevent one-shots. The AOE has to be tweaked, as far as i am concerned.
With the current change it will be necessary to hotkey your supertanks and be able to quickly execute the "attack ground/unit" command even in the heat of the battle to get your moneys worth. The way i see it, players with less stellar micro and reflexes will be severely punished, no matter how good their decision making is. Not sure if i like that.
The Jagdtiger can more easily be adjusted, because it is mainly AT. Removing the ability to shoot through buildings or decreasing the range sounds alright. The inherent ability to get stunned could be removed to compensate.
Big +1
Just stop the squad-wiping by changing AoE and things will be much better.
The changes to JT and ISU are improvements but I think there may be a better solution
Let's keep it constructive
23 Oct 2014, 20:38 PM
#19
Posts: 4928
So basically ISU gets Sturmpanzer gun, JT becomes a bloated Elefant.
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII
> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
23 Oct 2014, 20:42 PM
#20
Posts: 2070
NO MORE SQUAD WIPES NO MORE SQUAD WIPES!!!!!
Axis doesn't have the best AT options in the game
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