why kubel is still op?

With Sep 24th patch relic reversed most of the changes that were introduced in the Sep 9th patch which made that unit so op. Nonetheless, the kubel is still op and still dominates the early game so much. On first thought this does not make sense, however there is one important change that was omitted, it effects all vehicles and its a good one, but it also unleashed the kubel's op side:

Pathfinding

Vehicles will now be better at driving through narrow passages, they will be less likely to get stuck
Vehicles will now be less likely to enter a tight spot, thereby reducing the occurrences of on-the-spot pivots
Improved the way three point turns are executed
Improved the way vehicles respond to facing orders

If you remember before the Sep 9th patch all vehicles suffered from very bad pathing problems. For example, when you ordered the m3 to reveres, it would move forward 4m and then start reversing. In the kubel case this was causing it to behave very erratically and often end up getting destroyed before it could get out of trouble.

Now that pathing was fixed its high stats make it very op unit. For example, its fast acceleration (4.5) makes it hard to flank, it's small target size (10) makes it hard to hit, and it's high sight (50) awards it sufficient awareness to never get in trouble in the first place.

The last patch has fixed some problem, primarily excessive damage and suppression on the move, but it's still an op unit. If relic wants to fix this unit they need to add a 10 fuel cost, increase its target size to 15, and reduce it's acceleration to 2.5-3.

I think with those changes this unit will be closer to balanced.

I think relic needs to decide what the role of this unit should be. A suppression tool on a scouting unit with great mobility is just too much.

OP has been reported for excessive flaming, which I interpret to mean that there are already too many other threads on the same subject. But Sarantini has the thread in hand,so it's over to you, Satantini

Kubel was always a beast. But low hp and poor micro and poor overall appreciation of the unit made it suffer.


Now it's been OP as god for a while, people know just how good that suppression + mobility + no bleed is, and meta has evolved around its use. We know how to use it, pathfinding is (slowly) improving, and OKW all round buffs have made it a strong opening for an absurdly strong army in general.

I always used the kubel. The criticism it drew and the buffs mystified me. Everyone else now seems to be on my train of thought.

Another Kübel thread?

Another Kübel thread?

Why not, its addressing a very objective element. Its not just complaining in general. I agree the path finding made a significant change. The top speed bulletins in long maps as well help it get to perfect positions before your opponent can.

People were not using it because they were told it sucks, due being op for a while they excessively were using it and now know how to play with it. It's pretty much what is was before, if you are still complaining it's op, you are clearly overdoing it.

People were not using it because they were told it sucks, due being op for a while they excessively were using it and now know how to play with it. It's pretty much what is was before, if you are still complaining it's op, you are clearly overdoing it.

Umm, no, not really.

It got better range. It makes a world of difference. Previously it had same range as infantry and it was the only thing keeping it in check.

At this point nothing less then a fuel cost will do justice if they want to keep range.
Its the only "hmg" in game that is able to spot for itself and detect flanking infantry at vet1. It looses its relevance once the vehicles hit the field, but until that its god of early game.

It doesn't suppress on the move anymore. If you run into its arc of fire(which is more narrow) , you should be punished for that. Move a second squad to flank in order to force a repositioning of the Kübel.
Since you can't be kited anymore it's clearly just a battle of Micro.

It doesn't suppress on the move anymore.

Yes it clearly does.

Yes it clearly does.

Isn't it something like: supression threshold is achieved on the move when a little amount of "proper" supression effect is done previously ?

I think relic needs to decide what the role of this unit should be. A suppression tool on a scouting unit with great mobility is just too much.

Yes

Kubel was always a beast. But low hp and poor micro and poor overall appreciation of the unit made it suffer.


Now it's been OP as god for a while, people know just how good that suppression + mobility + no bleed is, and meta has evolved around its use. We know how to use it, pathfinding is (slowly) improving, and OKW all round buffs have made it a strong opening for an absurdly strong army in general.

I always used the kubel. The criticism it drew and the buffs mystified me. Everyone else now seems to be on my train of thought.

Yes some players used it very effectively even before the Spe 9th patch. It was most useful on maps with open cutoff/fuel like moscow or minsk.

People were not using it because they were told it sucks, due being op for a while they excessively were using it and now know how to play with it. It's pretty much what is was before, if you are still complaining it's op, you are clearly overdoing it.

plus a huge improvement to its movement because of pathing improvements and an increase to its range.

Isn't it something like: supression threshold is achieved on the move when a little amount of "proper" supression effect is done previously ?

essentially that is what is happening.

First of all i can't understand people who report the threads without even reading... wtf does it means that there are already kubel thread !? So nobody can start a more decent one with different ideas ? Expecially considering that most of the "balance threads" ends up in flames, i think that if someone has decent ideas (at least for him\her, than the forum will tell him right or wrong) should have to write it down.. otherwise what are we doing here ?

Now back to topic.

Abdul has his point, that isn't a huge nerf but it should balance that unit a bit.

I always thought that as vehicle shoulded cost some fuel since the beginning, but early on it was just a mildy more mobile set up gun, so it didn't really metter.. Now that is an effective vehicle it should cost like one.


For the other stats related part of the thread i can't tell much, i don't have enough knowledge to give a decent reply to that.

even with a fuel cost i will not a change a goddamn thing. usf will still be screwed on certain maps. the issue is not the kubel itself. its the usf's ability to defend itself against early light vehicles. a price reduction of the zooka and removing the teching cost will solve a lot of issues.

even with a fuel cost i will not a change a goddamn thing. usf will still be screwed on certain maps. the issue is not the kubel itself. its the usf's ability to defend itself against early light vehicles. a price reduction of the zooka and removing the teching cost will solve a lot of issues.

Adding a fuel cost makes spamming it very costly for the OKW player, because for every 10 fuel he spend on getting 1 kubel he will delay his teching at least 1-2 minutes. This makes spamming kubels risky because he can end up facing an m20 or aa ht with no puma to counter it.

As for removing teching for bazookas and making them cheaper that would introduce so many problems. USF player could skip building anything and just spam rifels and equip them with bazookas. Imagine 5-6 riles running around the map with 1 bazooka each.

The solution to the kubel problem lays in the kubel itself, because it is an op unit.

A fuel cost would be half a fix. It would give the OKW player a much more significant cost/trade-of for using it, which is needed in my opinion. It would also make losing it more punishing. However, it wouldn't change the fact that USF has no effective counter to a well-microed Kubelwagon. Every unit needs to be counter-able at every stage of the game in which it can appear, regardless of cost.

For this reason, I think a setup/tear down mechanic is the way to go. This would actually reward flanking the damn thing: at the moment, it is very hard to exploit even a very well executed flank until Rifles hit Vet 1 and gain access to AT nades.

This change also exposes the problem with the design intention behind the Kubel however: it is being expected to pull double duty as a suppression platform and a mobile scout/sniper hunter. I think at this point it is clear that it cannot fulfil both without being OP in at least one of them.

For this reason, I think a setup/tear down mechanic is the way to go. This would actually reward flanking the damn thing: at the moment, it is very hard to exploit even a very well executed flank until Rifles hit Vet 1 and gain access to AT nades.

Reduced acceleration works essentially like a soft setup/teardown, which I think is a much better (more intuitive for all parties) mechanic.

It was already suggested in the OP.

imo the biggest problem of the kubel is to secure whole sides of the map on its own.

therefore i would give it a fuel cost and decrease ist range and most importantly its line of sight or whatever you call that. that way, an unsupported kubel would spot a flank much later, but using it as a force multiplier would still give you good results.