LMG spam, is it really okay?

No more LMG performance nerfs. They are going to be shitty by the time Relic finishes swinging the nerf bat around. From here out, they should be balanced on cost. USF LMG was cost increased and it made me think twice about whether I wanted to upgrade a squad with it. Obviously the 42 is too cheap right now, raise it's cost. The 34 needs to actually have a munitions cost. Correct me if I'm wrong, but obers kar98k is still the most accurate rifle in the game. Lastly, cover needs to be more important. I would recommend relic review the bonuses applied with cover and perhaps increase them.

I would also like to see the bonus accuracy given to ostruppen for being in cover applied to all infantry or perhaps some type of bonus applied to the profile. For example, SMG gets faster reload, rifle gets more accuracy, carbine gets more accurate, bazooka/shrek reloads faster, HMG reloads faster, etc.

sadly, running into range against all these lmg is still suicidal. but rifles better at close quarters will help somewhat.

wehr in coh1 also did not have vehicle snare, which made schreck *THE* AT support weapon of the army. considering that, having schrecks was far more valuable than an lmg upgrade. schrecks also took up a single weapon slot which gave a choice to the player, boost to anti infantry or AT capabilities.

now, there's no alternative to lmg upgrade which makes it a no brainer upgrade.

Yeah and Grenadiers in CoH1 could stand up to all non-assault at any range, Riflemen, Tommies, Rangers, killed 'em all. They're really not comparable to Grenadiers in this game who get mopped up by Riflemen and are equaled by Conscripts (until upgraded).

sadly, running into range against all these lmg is still suicidal. but rifles better at close quarters will help somewhat.

wehr in coh1 also did not have vehicle snare, which made schreck *THE* AT support weapon of the army. considering that, having schrecks was far more valuable than an lmg upgrade. schrecks also took up a single weapon slot which gave a choice to the player, boost to anti infantry or AT capabilities.

now, there's no alternative to lmg upgrade which makes it a no brainer upgrade.

G43 vs LMG can make for some braining.

Granted that it's doctrinal.

LMG play is very strong. But anymore stat nerfs and they start becoming useless. Relic would need to look at costs and damage distribution instead.

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I think you are making a bit of a mistake in classifying infantry into 2 types ('basic' and 'elite') and saying that because Grens are basic infantry, they should lose to / be worse than elite infantry. The way I see it, that model only really applies to OKW and Soviets, and even then only to a certain degree. Ostheer has no elite infantry (i.e. infantry built from late-tier buildings that start out very strong), but Grenadiers become your elite infantry with the LMG upgrade and sufficient veterancy. Just because Guards are 'elite' doesn't mean you can directly compare them to Grens - all units have their role.

To deal with your 'examples' in a general way, I'd like the point out the Guards are intended as a dual AI/AT unit, decent DPS against vehicles and the very useful 'button' ability. This is a good chunk of what you are paying for with the manpower cost and DP upgrade. Grens have no AT except the Panzerfaust. Cons are obviously weaker than Grens, but have far more utility with Oorah!, AT nades, Molotovs and various other Doctrinal abilities. Shocks are a close range unit - they will absolutely tear through Grens if they get near (and they have smoke grenades to do this). Obviously 1 Shock unit will lose to 3-4 Grens, but unless you are heavily outnumbered Shocks will more than pull their weight in close-quarter situations. There are also other factors to consider here: Grens have no means to clear buildings, and their 4 man squads leaves them very vulnerable to being squad-wiped by a demo charge, artillery round or lucky grenade.

Now, let me say that I actually agree with you that these matchups are often too one-sided in the favour of the Grens. However, I think that is an issue with Soviet units being too weak, not Grens being too strong. I think Shocks are fine, but Cons need some sort of buff to make them useful, and Guards need to drop their weapons less at the very least.

The reason why I think this needs to be fixed on the Soviet side is that if LMGs were much weaker, I believe there would be a kind of tipping point where Ostheer would suddenly become pretty much unplayable. Ostruppen strats aside, as Ost your Grens are the workhorse of your army throughout the game. If Grens with LMGs couldn't beat Allied infantry in the way that they currently do, it would be trivial to overwhelm them with things like Cons or Penals, which would break the entire faction.

Hmm some poeple have raised interesting points. Perhaps it is not LMG that are way too good, but vet bonuses making units more deadly?

LMG's are fine. Please, please deal with it.

its funny because the people crying about fan-boys are fan-boys them self's

on topic yeah differently need a BUFF and maybe LMG Need a SMALL dps nerf at close range as they should not be good at close combat but at the moment their not to bad its just USF is super shit at the moment which make lmgs seem OP

LMG's are fine. Please, please deal with it.

Please, please elaborate. i dont see why they are fine when they tear through infantry so fast and other infantry themselves struggle to kill even 1 model.

I believe one of the biggest issues with Grens in coh2 is that they do everything.

1. Wanna kill infantry? No big deal upgrade to lmg spam.

2. Wanna disable or kill armor? Spam pazerfaust.

3. Wanna kill those pesky machine gunners? Spam rifle nade.

4. Wanna blindly and safely attack move while you micro Armor? No worries long range and high dps advantage will automate the battle process for you.

The counter to lmg spam early game is vehicles. But the panzerfaust ability and high dps of lmg shred light vehicles. In vcoh you could only start with volks in tier 1. Volks could counter light vehicles with the panzerfaust but had crappy dps and had to stay long range behind cover. They died like flies if you did attack move. A nice trade off. You could tech up to grenadiers or volks with mp40. Volks mp40 switched to cqc but still died like flies if not watched closely.

The current coh2 grenadiers have been over performing in many areas for a long time and it has had a negative impact on the other factions and even some ostheer units as well such as panzer grens.

Also make note that the lmg upgrade usually provides the ability to gain vet fast. The end result is vetted lmg Grens by the time enemy elite infantry are called to the battlefield. Which exponentially helps the Grens win infantry battles.

I do not think the lmg should get nerfed. The issue is a core faction design issue at tier 1 for the Ost. Maybe a fix could be for the player to choose one type of upgrade for his grenadiers.

1. Anti infantry Grens. Ok lmg upgrade.

2. Anti machine gun Grens. Ok rifle nade upgrade.

3. Anti vehicle Grens. Ok panzerfaust upgrade.

This solution allows the Grens to be a flexible core infantry unit. You could permenantly upgrade in real time when the situation calls for it. But it also makes the player think about spamming a certain upgrade as it will take away other abilities to counter other threats.

this solution makes the early game more of a chess match for both players. It also rewards Ost players who build a balanced gren force as the enemy will need to adapt to the upgrade pattern. It allows gren lmg spam to be punished by opponents who are situationally aware.

With my suggested design change you would see panzer Grens make return to the meta.

i have long since known that rifle nades are too effective, but others seem to collective say no. they give too much flexibility and effective long range mg counters, while other infantry units struggle to flank well placed mgs, these guys can a + move to mgs in numbers and as long as they are fairly spaced out and not get collectively pinned, rifle nades and lmgs will clear them out pretty easily.

i have long since known that rifle nades are too effective, but others seem to collective say no. they give too much flexibility and effective long range mg counters, while other infantry units struggle to flank well placed mgs, these guys can a + move to mgs in numbers and as long as they are fairly spaced out and not get collectively pinned, rifle nades and lmgs will clear them out pretty easily.

I believe the denial of some Ost players regarding rifle nades is beacause of the current soviet mg spam meta and the fact that the ability is so efficient and cost effective nobody in their right mind would want to give it up. I'll admit that I cannot resist abusing the rifle nade spam. It just decisively changes the battle in your favor with no risk at all. It may delay your lmg's but when you wipe squads for a little munitions cost is worth it. Especially when you can then take more points and get more ammo as a result of wipes or pushes from rifle nades.

lmgs in general are one of the worst early game design elements in coh2. They break down the game mechanics that make this game fun including cover and flanking, because they make blobbing rewarding. If you have 4 squads of lmg grens or rifles all you have to do is keep them together and focus fire on your opponent that is trying to get closer. You will destroy him before he can get close enough to do any damage. Your opponent is forced to either spam his own lmgs or use cheesy tactics.

edit: i dont think the rifle grande is that amazing, at least against sov 6 man support weapons, it just kills half the squad, pretty consistent with other grenades.

in coh1 this sort of thing was handled better because there was more stuff to buy with your munitions, most commander abilities required a good number of munitions and stuff.

now most commanders tend to just be call ins or passive upgrades, and sometimes maybe one of the commander abilities is a munitions costing ability.

especially at the mid game and beyond.. i never really find myself actually looking to see how much munitions i have. if theres a place to throw a grenade i always do it. if i buy a unit with an optional upgrade i always buy it etc etc. By the time i get the chance to spend munitions i feel like ive saved up enough.

LMG upgrades ought to be good. just you ought to also be trading off something else your army could have to buy it.

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maybe i have worded it poorly and steered it into a grens are op thread, but let me try to put the perspective back. but the point of this thread is not about grens overperforming. it is still about lmg outperforming. the idea that lmgs having dps comparable to elite infantry and can be massed by usf and ost is a the problem.

like katitoff said, it will always be a problem when lmg constantly snipes models, because of that high ranged dps. and abdul makes a good point that lmg pretty much negates cover with that kind of dps and flanking are effectively dealt with by focus firing.

the reason why i used grens and rifles is because they have access to lmgs and can be deployed to a critical mass where they output so much dps, enemy infantry lose models almost immediately on contact, this makes for really bad infantry play.

in short, lmg snipes models so effectively, playing against 4x lmgs feels like fighting against snipers spam strategy, the moment you reveal ur units, they are immediately gunned down and you lose models by merely popping into sight range of lmg.