LMG spam, is it really okay?

it seems to me, this lmg spam problem is not really gone yet despite some nerfs. the idea that line infantry can get dps comparable to elite infantry is kind of breaking the game and the best known culprits are riflemen and grenadiers.

while i understand that USF and Ost barely have any elite infantry and will need upgrades to remain competitive in the late game, but however should they really get dps of this sort which really ruins infantry play when they mow down everything so fast and at a very safe distance.

being line infantry, they are easily spammed(4squads) as compared to a single ober squad(who i think still needs toning down) or 1-2 guards squad means spamming their upgrades are also pretty much spammed too. so it really raises their collective dps by a HUGE margin which they can proceed to mow down other poor souls at a like conscripts and volks/shocks who only have bolt action rifles or require close range for the entirety of the game and at a comfortable, safe range.

i think LMGs still need nerfs when spammed in such numbers or doctrinal on an elite infantry like paratroopers who arent spammed and are still manageable.

grenadiers need another upgrade to raise their combat effectiveness just like the bars, which provides only 200% dps to a single garand, not like the lmg which provides 400% boost over the kar98 at max range.

similarly for the m191 browning.

I wouldn't really consider 4 of a basic, non-weapon team squad to be spam.

Anyway, I feel that you are not really accounting for the fact that most of the things you describe are intentional. Grenadiers w/ LMGs are intended to be able to shred Cons at medium long-range - without this, Grens would be near-useless and not worth building at all. Just think about how much of a nerf to Ostheer your suggestions would be. Is it really true that LMG DPS is breaking the game? It was tuned down about 3 weeks ago in a major patch, and I would argue that reducing this any more would severely damage faction balance. As it stands, LMG Grens are strong 1v1 against other infantry squads at medium-long range, but there are many counters and many other situations in which they do not perform as effectively. Same goes for Rifles.

You also need to consider the fact that 4 x LMG upgrade = a huge 240 munitions. This represents a very significant trade-off against grenades, mines, Panzerschrecks, arty and a lot of other things.

It's fine, jeez. You people won't stop until the LMG is just a 60 munitions glorified Kar 98, huh?

I wouldn't really consider 4 of a basic, non-weapon team squad to be spam.

Anyway, I feel that you are not really accounting for the fact that most of the things you describe are intentional. Grenadiers w/ LMGs are intended to be able to shred Cons at medium long-range - without this, Grens would be near-useless and not worth building at all. Just think about how much of a nerf to Ostheer your suggestions would be. Is it really true that LMG DPS is breaking the game? It was tuned down about 3 weeks ago in a major patch, and I would argue that reducing this any more would severely damage faction balance. As it stands, LMG Grens are strong 1v1 against other infantry squads at medium-long range, but there are many counters and many other situations in which they do not perform as effectively. Same goes for Rifles.

You also need to consider the fact that 4 x LMG upgrade = a huge 240 munitions. This represents a very significant trade-off against grenades, mines, Panzerschrecks, arty and a lot of other things.

Very reasonable and well thought out, I agree with everything said here

My problem with LMGs is how cost effective they are compared to other upgrades for core infantry.

Rifles will beat Grens, but LMG Grens will beat 1xBAR rifles most of the time and still have a good shot against 2xBAR rifles.

Whether this means LMGs need a nerf or other upgrades (especially BARs) need a buff is the question.

My problem with LMGs is how cost effective they are compared to other upgrades for core infantry.

Rifles will beat Grens, but LMG Grens will beat 1xBAR rifles most of the time and still have a good shot against 2xBAR rifles.

Whether this means LMGs need a nerf or other upgrades (especially BARs) need a buff is the question.

This has more to do with the BAR being the most cost ineffective infantry upgrade in the game rather than the general effectiveness of LMGs, but I haven't played enough of the meta to know for sure.

Why are you complaining about lmgs? Look at their carriers. Some shitty units, very close to osttruppen. Oh, yeah, they are called "grenadiers".

Why are you complaining about lmgs? Look at their carriers. Some shitty units, very close to osttruppen. Oh, yeah, they are called "grenadiers".

LMG grens are beast, and they have faust and rifle nade, possibly the best baseline inf in the game right now. Osttruppen are super cost effective but require more micro to be as effective.

I only play team games, but I'll tell you what wrecks my day when I go heavy on LMGs. Scotts. Nnnngggghhhh....

I wouldn't really consider 4 of a basic, non-weapon team squad to be spam.

Anyway, I feel that you are not really accounting for the fact that most of the things you describe are intentional. Grenadiers w/ LMGs are intended to be able to shred Cons at medium long-range - without this, Grens would be near-useless and not worth building at all. Just think about how much of a nerf to Ostheer your suggestions would be. Is it really true that LMG DPS is breaking the game? It was tuned down about 3 weeks ago in a major patch, and I would argue that reducing this any more would severely damage faction balance. As it stands, LMG Grens are strong 1v1 against other infantry squads at medium-long range, but there are many counters and many other situations in which they do not perform as effectively. Same goes for Rifles.

You also need to consider the fact that 4 x LMG upgrade = a huge 240 munitions. This represents a very significant trade-off against grenades, mines, Panzerschrecks, arty and a lot of other things.

breaking the game? no, but there's too much of an unfair advantage over rifles and smg infantry. lmg is still, the mother of all infantry weapons, the king of A move tactics and needs some toning down.

what i ask for is a toning down to manageable levels, not at its current levels where lmgs provide such a huge upgrade to a point where they match elite infantry. most elite infantry are also more expensive than grenadiers by a relatively huge margin, about 90mp/75munitions more for guards, 150mp more for shocks. that 60muni investment actually more cost effective than elite infantry. for 240mp and 60munitions to match elites, it is relatively cheap. so cost wise, there isnt really much to compare, the lmg upgrade is just so much more effective.

a common scenario of 2 cons + 2 guards (1140mp/150munitions) vs 4 upgraded grens (960mp/240munitions). in a straight up fight, the grens will mow down everything in sight before taking any serious casualties. if grens were to a move towards 2 cons and 2 guards, rifle nades will make short work of guards who have to stand still to fire and should the guards leave cover to throw a nade, they will be shot to bits.

another scenario of 2 cons + 2 shocks(1260mp) vs 4 upgraded grens (960mp/240munitions). this could be even more one sided as long as grens maintain long range, nothing can scratch them. however, should shocks get close, focus fire and soft retreating the gren squad in danger should force a retreat. so for soviet infantry here to do real damage, it is very situational and extremely risky.

design should never interfere with balance or overperformance. as long as grens has an advantage over cons, it meets the design. grens match cons without lmg and if you mean cons are currently useless, you should then know that grens have too much an unfair advantage over cons.

with lmgs, cons, penals are invalidated (read free exp), guards struggle and shocks become situational. in order to match 4x grens and prevent them from rolling over infantry, you need to lock them down with enough dps or pin them down. considering they have access to rifle nades and that huge ranged dps, maxims will have trouble suppressing them before the gunner gets killed.

also, this problem was faced when browning lmgs were spammed. grenadiers, volks, fusiliers, obers or falls had issues standing in the sheer firepower of lmgs and the amount of crying was immense.

what im saying is, the long range lmg nerf is not good enough, more has to be done.

about faction balance, okw far outperforms ost and ost is still at a very good spot. since wfa, sov and US received mainly nerfs, so i dont see a balance problem. usf still have no counter to sniper, sov have no hard counters to gren spam except by taking a huge mp bleed mid to late game. the reason for okw popularity is not because ost suck, okw is just far better.

insta pin mg34? check
almost insta pin mg34 on wheels? check
non doctrinal heavy tank? check
base infantry with good scaling? check
counter to isu152? check
cheaper teching progression? check
noob friendly? check

I liked how in CoH1 the Grens were good static with LMG but they were also very strong used aggressively on the move. CoH2 they are really good with the LMG and pretty lack luster on the move with Kar98s which makes spamming the LMGs a no-brainer. Making the rifles deadlier at CQB is the solution.

I liked how in CoH1 the Grens were good static with LMG but they were also very strong used aggressively on the move. CoH2 they are really good with the LMG and pretty lack luster on the move with Kar98s which makes spamming the LMGs a no-brainer. Making the rifles deadlier at CQB is the solution.

sadly, running into range against all these lmg is still suicidal. but rifles better at close quarters will help somewhat.

wehr in coh1 also did not have vehicle snare, which made schreck *THE* AT support weapon of the army. considering that, having schrecks was far more valuable than an lmg upgrade. schrecks also took up a single weapon slot which gave a choice to the player, boost to anti infantry or AT capabilities.

now, there's no alternative to lmg upgrade which makes it a no brainer upgrade.

I liked how in CoH1 the Grens were good static with LMG but they were also very strong used aggressively on the move. CoH2 they are really good with the LMG and pretty lack luster on the move with Kar98s which makes spamming the LMGs a no-brainer. Making the rifles deadlier at CQB is the solution.

G43 make grens effective on the move and on close distance.

I still think the LMG's weapon design, AKA high damage at all ranges with virtually no downsides except to be immobile (which ain't no real downside since all infantry loses DPS on the move except SMGs if I recall correctly) is a bad one. IMO LMGs should be crap at long range (no accuracy), become really good at mid-range, and be killer at close range. Cover should also be more effective vs them than against any other weapon, forcing you to use them well. Let semi-automatic rifles be the best long range small arm.

Currently LMG infantry can easily rack up 20-30 kills by just a-moving in the general direction of anything that's not as leet as them. This requires basically no micro and is extremely effective against anything but dedicated AI vehicles or ambushes by close range troops. In my mind, they should mostly be effective at mid-range against infantry not in cover, making you use other means (grenades, close range troops, tanks) in order to flush the opponent out of it and then let it rip with the LMGs. As it stands LMG dps is so high cover doesn't really do much.

The changes were very good and make it easier to fight lmgs up close as far away they are roughly the same just a little weaker

I think LMG Grens are too strong, but i think its more an issue with how good grenadier vet is than simply the weapon itself at the moment. This compounded with the fact that Riflemen don't have quality nondoctrinal upgrades and Soviet infantry being more or less ineffective outside of shock troops Make LMG grens the Kings of the battlefield at this time.

Stat wis vet 5 volks with lmgs of any kind are the most cost effective ai unit in the game but its a rare sight to behold . (I belive there a page on redidit about all the stats il edit later if oican find it again if people are intressted)

What if they just increased the cost for a quick fix till they could focus on the stat numbers of (all) lmgs, right now its too easy to obtain critical mass of a lmg blob. In increasing the cost would 1 delay the strength. And 2 leave them lacking in other departmenta for abilitys mines etc. That way it wouldnt be such a no brainer for such a massive power spike.and the delay in obtainin it would give playeres more of a window early game to try and wipe that one squad.

Omg stop with the nerfs already ffs

I think LMGs are a no-brainer upgrade.... still pretty strong but not sure how to balance them out

LMGs will never be balanced as long as all the DPS is focused on a single model, leading to model sniping and bleed second only to german sniper.

lmg's are still too strong.

on the other hand BAR needs a buff