Very Radical Soviet Tier-ing Idea

So, going to throw out an idea that I had. Is Relic going to use this idea? Very highly unlikely. Am I an expert of game design and balance? No. Do new crazy ideas sometimes break the mold? Sometimes.

So Soviet tier-ing is rather...bad. Many players are stuck with (old meta) picking two of the four buildings (one with infantry and one with vehicles), or (current meta) going one (or two) infantry buildings and waiting for call-ins.

And we've played with ideas like, making T3 or T4 slightly cheaper, or swapping the SU-76 and T70, but would that really solve the issue in totality? Soviets will still feel limited and lets be real, cheese spamming maxims or snipers wouldn't change, and the Axis primary players would not like that.

And yet Relic would prefer that we have Soviets stick to having to make choices, and having an asymmetrical system that does not mimic the tier-ing of other factions. Options are either tweaking (done so far, success up to interpretation) or radical change.

So here's the idea: Soviets have two buildable buildings that can upgrade (if someone else already suggested this, sorry I haven't read every post under the sun).

1. T0 Command Center: Combat Engineers, Conscripts, M3 Scout Car (M3 requires T1 building to unlock)
Reasoning: Same as before, the Scout Car will come out the same speed as before but no longer directly build from T1.

-2. T1 Level 1: Penal Troops, Mortar, SU-76; it looks like T1 building and costs the same fuel.
Reasoning: Penal Troops to complement conscripts in fighting early infantry use of grenadiers or Sturmpios. Mortar to soft-counter MG spam (it has smoke, use it). SU-76 which is to use as intended, supporting infantry. If SU-76 left in it's current state, then I'd say reduce to ~25-30 fuel cost; if buffed a little, then to the value of ~50 fuel.

-3. T1 Level 2 which costs ~30-50 Fuel: Maxim, Sniper, T70
Reasoning: Now Axis players will love that maxim and sniper spam will be delayed a bit. To compensate, maybe cons and penals get some sort of buff or if you're confident the mortars, SC, and SU-76 can complement enough. This is around the cost of going the old T1 and T2 together to get maxims and snipers. This then becomes choice: do you get SC and/or SU-76 and delay or forgo T1 Level 2? How badly you want maxims, snipers, and T70, can be very strong under the right circumstances. Also going T1 Level 2 also delays getting your new tank building. The T1 Level two builds your old support weapon kamp next to it without the need of engineers.

-4. T2 Level 1: Zis, Halftrack, T34/76
Reasoning: It comes back to timing. Do you go T1 Level 2 or skip maxims for your Zis? You can have options to choose if your opponent goes heavy infantry, go T1 Level 2. Afraid your SU-76 doesn't cut it against his early light armor, go T2 Level 1. This should give you adequate mid game play and should appear at mid game if you hold a fuel point and skipped T1 Level 2 or a bit delayed if you build T1 Level 2.

-5. T2 Level 2: Katyusha, SU-85, T34/85
Reasoning: Should cost maybe ~100 fuel to be able to see in a game as opposed to the near impossibility of seeing a T3 alongside T4 currently but not so cheap that it's an easy transition. As another balance, T34/85 replace T45/76 so you cannot build the cheaper option if needed AND currently fielded T34/76's do not upgrade. Again comes down to choice.

So this idea may (big "may) solve a number of problems. No more (or a lot less) complaining of maxim and sniper spam; the SU-76 have a new lease on life, T70 can still be rushed at the cost of Zis and T34, and potential late game options for Soviets (as opposed to being locked with T34-76's and crying when that King Tiger appears).

Some considerations: Penals and Cosncripts should receive some kind of buff. Maybe damage or survivability, and maybe tying molotov and AT grenade to T1's levels of upgrades. As with Call-ins tanks where people might be scared that paired with T2 Level 2, as a balance push the CP back ~2-3 levels further out. As for making them worth it, make tanks like paired T34-85's costing less than you buying them from T2 Level 2, but you have to wait NOTABLY longer is the deal.

So what you think? Good? Bad? Awful? Genius? Got an even better idea? Post it!

Again, this is all opinion from a guy who plays. I'm sure many of you geniuses out there got some stellar, different ideas, so post them, and maybe Relic will pick one!

Whilst there are somethings I have a niggling disagreement with, I entirely agree with the need for radical change for the Soviets and this is it!

Dude, as a Soviet Fanboy, this is great! Love it.

The only issue would be where would all the T-34-85 callins go, perhaps they could stay, to provide extra flexibility for somebody who goes T1-T1.5 say.

This is great, an excellent, smart little change that keeps the Soviets as they were designed to be, having less choices and at the same time gives them a high amount of flexibility.

Dude, this is an excellent idea, I'm all for it. Thanks for this.

I'm sure the fanboys will be along in a second to bag your idea.

As an added suggestion, send it to Relic, Pqumsieh is around... so send it to them, whether by CoH2 forums or the official relic forums.
(I would too if I wasn't banned from them...)

I am for Soviet change. However, i worry how Ostheer will handle it.

No way Relic will ever put this in the game, but I believe they will add mod tools at some point, so you should hang on to this and go about setting it up if/when that happens.

edit:

I'd have to play both to make a judgement, but on paper I like your idea much better than the current system.

I'm only pointing out that there's no precedent for Relic making such sweeping changes to a game after release, so this, and similar suggestions, are basically futile ... unless they're made into fantastic mods later.

I really like this idea, the only thing I don't like is the Maxim and AT Gun come too late. The AT Gun is necessary for fighting Bunker spam or overly aggressive Flak truck placement.

Regardless I voted for the top option.

I do agree the zis cant come late cause it is needed for bunker spam and overextending vehicles. And make Zis barrage come after T1 Upgrade

really interesting and i wouldnt mind this being implemented. although t34/85 becoming a stock unit might make this change too much of a problem.

anyway i think these changes should be at least testes

I think it sounds pretty good, though fuel costs would have to be balanced well so the su76s and t34s wouldn't come out too early (i.e. before a real counter by axis could be made). The 76 sounds like it could come out very quickly. I guess around 6-7 mins could be ok. OKW could have Puma out by then and Wehr Pak.

really interesting and i wouldnt mind this being implemented. although t34/85 becoming a stock unit might make this change too much of a problem.

anyway i think these changes should be at least testes

Well maybe T-34/85 will need both new T1 and T2 full upgrade so that it will be at the same tier as KT, generally with both T-34/76 and SU-85 I think Soviet armour can handle anything throw at them short of KT, Ele or JT.

I think this is a fantastic idea. I'd love for the Soviets to get a tier overhaul, though I doubt Relic will ever do anything besides adjust costs and build times. If this idea were to go in, it would certainly make the Soviets a lot more interesting and less call-in dependent, though I agree that the ZiS might need to come out slightly earlier.

The delayed Zis was part of the idea to "sweeten the deal" not to skip the tank production building.

In the meantime the idea was that SU-76 in it's new hypothetical placement and/or pricing/buff would make it along with complementary forces handle bunker spam and early pumas or flaktraks via numbers or better buffing (with applicable pricing) in order to swim in the same pond as the puma/flaktrack in that 6-8 minute mark.

Going without the T1 Level up (skipping) with one fuel point one should be able to get a Zis slightly faster than "fast T34" speed (8-12 minutes) as though the building costs fuel, a Zis does not. So its not as late as your first T34 in current iteration of the game.

And going for upgraded new T1 level up you can opt for if your enemy plays more heavily on infantry or you were doing great in the early game so you are confident in your Su-76(s) or your opponent doesn't have adequate armor yet.

Or maybe you went new T1 and then new T2 and get some armor and your opponent responds with a pak-wall. You can reasonably treat upgraded new T1 level up as what backteching is now.

Either way, I don't think a slower Zis is thaaaaat dangerous but that's my humble opinion.

If Relic offered this in some kind of open beta, I'd certainly test it out, hell, if Relic offered this as some kind of DLC for a few bucks I'd buy it as well (though Relic, please don't if its all the same).

Can you specify tier/upgrade costs please?

Also, have you figured into your proposal, that current structure requires either T1 or T2 in order to build T3 or T4?

Can you specify tier/upgrade costs please?

Also, have you figured into your proposal, that current structure requires either T1 or T2 in order to build T3 or T4?

I haven't listed strict tier and tier upgrade costs as I feel there are much better mathematicians here who can better pace them.

My current theory for the new tier-ing idea would be:
-T1 120MP & 40 fuel and gives conscripts molotov upgrade free

-T1 Upgrade 150MP & ~30-40 fuel (requires new T1) and gives conscripts AT grenade upgrade free

-T2 240MP & ~110-120 fuel (requires new T1) and gives conscripts AT grenade upgrade free in absence of T1 upgraded

-T2 Upgrade 200MP & 70-100 fuel (requires new T2)

Again this is just my humble idea on the new pricings but if anyone can tweak it better by all means go for it.

Edit: Also aware that current in-game T1 or T2 is required for T3 and/or T4 but I think the scheme I've presented is more more useful in my opinion.