Let's talk Soviet faction.

If Cons get AI upgrade buff then so should Volks.

If underpowered unit gets buff, that doesn't mean perfectly fine unit should get one as well.
Also, OKW have elite infantry without any doctrine plus volks scale as amazing AT infantry. Not to mention OKW starting T0 units, which could carry you all the way to call-ins(if OKW had useful, early ones).

Your argument is not only invalid, but just plain stupid.

If underpowered unit gets buff, that doesn't mean perfectly fine unit should get one as well.
Also, OKW have elite infantry without any doctrine plus volks scale as amazing AT infantry. Not to mention OKW starting T0 units, which could carry you all the way to call-ins(if OKW had useful, early ones).

Your argument is not only invalid, but just plain stupid.

Volks are not perfectly fine, otherwise I wouldn't be saying they need an upgrade. 'Amazing AT infantry'... just no. They are very weak and are often getting 2-3 models killed by 1 shot of the armor they are trying to kill. There is no such thing as amazing AT infantry in CoH2, the only thing close to that is Pgrens because they have 2 schreks but then it is only 4 man squad, so quite weak.

What call-ins? Are you suggesting OKW can play like soviets and hold for call-ins? Staying with volksgrenadiers, sturms and kubelwagen is great for 25 mins, just need that Command Panther to finish them off.

T0 -> Call-ins... hmmm. Conscripts spam if anything, or even riflemen.

What volks need is some kind of vet 3/4 and/or T2/T3 requirement that will allow them to upgrade to some better AI weapons, otherwise they scale very badly if there is not much use for panzerschrek. Even with vet they got torn apart by pretty much anything. Their AI DPS for mid-late game is awful considering you will always have at least 2-3 squads of them and if you upgrade with panzerschrek that's only 4 with kar 98ks. Heck even if it's just a doctrinal upgrade like conscript PPSH it will be better than nothing, since pretty much every other standard infantry unit is able to upgrade to better weapons for AI.

The last part is very typical katitof, say something to make it look stupid and wrong when in fact it's actually not (unless of course it's biased for allies). Trying to discredit the other poster without actually saying anything of note besides spewing BS everywhere.

Soviets have three major design issues:

1. Conscript scaling: Although good enough in the early game, conscripts lose any sort of substantial role as the game continues. Not being durable enough to be meatshields or powerful enough to be damage dealers, conscripts only serve to get quickly cut down by upgraded or elite infantry. It doesn't help that too be able to do anything to support other squads they need a manpower and fuel investments for abilities that are inferior to their counterparts.

2. Penals- The best non-doctrinal infantry soviets can muster. They simply don't stand a chance compared to other elite infantry. Their flamethrower upgrade seems redundant to help them in their role of anti-garrison since satchels provide the same benefit and flamethrowers are an inconsistent tool for infantry battles.

They also have too much overlap with cons considering cons have molotovs for anti-garrison and also excel at mid to close range.

Overall they are ineffective for allowing soviets to play more infantry heavy and compete with other upgraded or elite infantry.

3. T3 and T4 lack of tier cohesion: While I agree that soviet tiers should be somewhat restrictive that leaves no reason why the late tiers have no cohesion within themselves. The T-70 is redundant when paired with T34s who are also anti-infantry, while being far more durable for a little higher price. While the SU-76 also is outclassed by either the Su-85 and Katyusha. Switching them would allow for more cohesion and variable play without messing with the generalist and specialist roles of T3 and T4.



The only other issue is that they have no late game without any doctrines, but that is more of a game wide problem then just the soviets.

Volks are the best mainline and cheapest infantry in the game, they don't need the buff, but cons deserve a huge one.

If you want to give Volks AI upgrade you seriously need to play the game.

Edit: About the soviet faction design: most of the units should have upgrades once they hit vet 3 in order to better scale into late-mid game. Like T34 --> 85 upgrade, cons --> weapon upgrade, CEs --> small armor upgrade, su85 --> su-100.

Maxim buff lol

Volks aren't bad they get shreks the best infantry AT weapen in game, are better in long range than cons and get easy to vet 5 when used well with shreks. And Russians don't have non doctrinal elite infantry OKW does have plenty of them.

Dont forget about the Soviet Mortar and the ZIS gun.

Just for the lols if you want to kill a T70 with the PAK it has to stand around 3 sec in the arc. If you want to kill the luchs with a ZIS it has to stand around 9 sec in its arc. Assuming every shot hits the target

Compare the Mortars you get a 7.5 reloud to a 2.4 reloud.

I know Soviet support weapons are more durable but does it realy need such a difference in the dmg to compensate?

Dont forget about the Soviet Mortar and the ZIS gun.

Just for the lols if you want to kill a T70 with the PAK it has to stand around 3 sec in the arc. If you want to kill the luchs with a ZIS it has to stand around 9 sec in its arc. Assuming every shot hits the target

Compare the Mortars you get a 7.5 reloud to a 2.4 reloud.

I know Soviet support weapons are more durable but does it realy need such a difference in the dmg to compensate?

To kill t70 with pak you need around 5 seconds. Pretty short. To kill luchs you need 12-14 seconds. That is ridiculously long.

Dont forget about the Soviet Mortar and the ZIS gun.

Just for the lols if you want to kill a T70 with the PAK it has to stand around 3 sec in the arc. If you want to kill the luchs with a ZIS it has to stand around 9 sec in its arc. Assuming every shot hits the target

Compare the Mortars you get a 7.5 reloud to a 2.4 reloud.

I know Soviet support weapons are more durable but does it realy need such a difference in the dmg to compensate?

To kill t70 with pak you need around 5 seconds. Pretty short. To kill luchs you need 12-14 seconds. That is ridiculously long.

I think Conscripts could go down to 220 mp and one pop cap less. I don´t think giving them DPs would be a good idea because then they would be too close to Grens in design.

I think Conscripts could go down to 220 mp and one pop cap less. I don´t think giving them DPs would be a good idea because then they would be too close to Grens in design.

that will turn cons more into a meat shield of maxims/snipers

We have to reverse the roles of the Maxim and conscript/penal squad. Currently, Maxims are used as frontline infantry while conscripts are more like support troops. Relic needs to buff conscripts/penals ALONG with the appropriate maxim nerfs. Hopefully these changes can lessen maxim spam but give soviets a more reliable basic infantry

relic needs to make a decision if cons are throwaway infantry or soviet's base infantry.

if conscripts are throwaway infantry, penals/guards needs to be reworked, penals being the standard trained infantry of the soviet army, they need respectable firepower and proper grenades. while guards are the heavy elite infantry and with stats and cost to reflect.

else, should conscripts be the soviet's base infantry, they need scaling desperately since they do not have a non doctrinal elite infantry.

relic needs to make a decision if cons are throwaway infantry or soviet's base infantry.

if conscripts are throwaway infantry, penals/guards needs to be reworked, penals being the standard trained infantry of the soviet army, they need respectable firepower and proper grenades. while guards are the heavy elite infantry and with stats and cost to reflect.

else, should conscripts be the soviet's base infantry, they need scaling desperately since they do not have a non doctrinal elite infantry.

Id rather have penals be the throwaway infantry and conscripts be the base just for realism. Seems silly that a penal battalion becomes the "main" infantry of the USSR.

Penal Squad should be reworked into some sort of assault squadron. I don't want the changed into a long-range unit like others have suggested. Their current kit matches close-range identity more than long-range.

On the topic of doctrinal elite infantry, it seems rather ridiculous that guards are doctrinal, when Ostheer have PzGr and OKW have Obersoldaten.

I think Conscripts could go down to 220 mp and one pop cap less. I don´t think giving them DPs would be a good idea because then they would be too close to Grens in design.

Conscripts' building cost is not an issue.
It's the reinforcing cost what bleeds you mid game as they die like flies.

Btw, merge command is a pain to use in HQ where several units are too close. An easier way to merge will be very useful.

Conscripts need a buff. That's fine.

You can buff the Maxim like that once you decrease it's squad size and increase its reinforce cost. Adding those changes you mentioned would be ridiculous. Maxims are currently just annoying AF, not really OP.

Penals are in an odd spot right now. I feel like satchels provide a surprising amount of utility by being able to destroy pretty much any building. They're good against engine hampered vehicles and noobs that can't micro either!

Soviet snipers shouldn't have 2 men and have sprint, it's just silly, but you can't buff them to the level of the Ost sniper because that would also be too much to handle for squads with 4 men. It's a sticky issue.

But the 2 most broken Sov units are Shocks and the ISU. Shocks are just too tough, and can run through fire even without smoke and shred squads.

ISU is just laughably broken though. Too tough + amazing vs. infantry and taks. All it lacks is speed and a turret. The thing even sights for itself. Jagdtiger is broken too but at least it can't sight for itself. IMO these long ranged vehicles just don't deserve a spot in this game at all.

This thread can basically be summarized by this one.

I don't think that Relic will ever do that. PQ said that they should be inferior then the other basic infantry, so it will never happen. To bad, because ether you go Guards/Shocks to have a good infantry unit. Or go for Penals ha ha!!!

I don't think that Relic will ever do that. PQ said that they should be inferior then the other basic infantry, so it will never happen. To bad, because ether you go Guards/Shocks to have a good infantry unit. Or go for Penals ha ha!!!

So give them cost decrease.

If they want them to perform like osttruppen, they should cost no more then osttruppen.

They would still not be used over snipers or maxims thou.

Soviet design is simply flawed, everyone with a clue is saying that since.... CLOSED BETA and relic doesn't listen. You can't even pick a doctrine that doesn't have guards/shocks or you will loose by default against OKW and its not like against ost its fine to play with cons only either.

Could always go with crazy ideas.

Rather than giving them upgrades so they are more killy, what about making something tied into getting T3 or T4 up? Make it like DoW 1 and 2 for IG where tech provides additional members, but the base cost remains the same so you'll have cheap troops to reinforce but losing squads is still a bad idea. Then possibly remove the received accuracy as part of Vet 1.

T3/T4: Provides the ability to have two more members for conscripts upon completion. This would reduce their reinforce cost to 15 (240/2 = 120/8 = 15). Possibly make these two extra men not count towards population or conscript population in general is reduced to a weird 0.75 pop per guy.

Sure conscript rifles aren't great, but that's two more rifle than you had and give more incentives to merge into the 15mp weapon teams and other troops. It would also allow them to be more of a damage sponge/stalling for support and survive longer to get abilities off.

Or easier way, give them more survivability boosts with Vet like Volks. They still won't scale well due to damage output, but they would survive longer and not get horribly gunned down.