Overhaul of vcoh2 vet abilities

This thread will try to adress either the effectiveness of some vet abilities or the dubious choice of giving it to certain units and suggestions regarding what should they have.

I'm encourage to post this, since we had been given another unit, Brummbar, another vet ability more in line with the role of the unit.
Take in mind, that i'm not focusing on making new abilities for the sake of it, rather than trying to givethem something more in line with the role of the unit, increase utility/effectiveness of worthless abilities or try using existent abilities in the game (either from the campaign, ToW or other units)

Note: i'm sure i might forget a couple of units/abilities. Feel free to correct or remind me anything.
Note: i'm not adressing overperforming abilities (for example: sprint for snipers)
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Medkit ability:
Pios, grens, pgrens, assgrens, Osstruppen (?), Stormtroopers (?)

I think it should stay for Pios and grens, maybe Osstruppen too, but how it works/effectiveness should be tweaked.
A) Either reduce ammo cost and/or increase speed of healing. Basically buffing the ability while not changing it's mechanic.
or
B) Make it work on a similar fashion to SP medic kit. IIRC it's 30muni for 3 packs? Make it 15muni for a single stash. This way you can use it to heal yourself and you don't have the risk of an opponent taking it.

Trip wire flares
I guess every single combat troop. CE, Cons, Penals, Guards (PPSH guards), Shocks, Partisans, Irregulars.

Should stay on: CE-Cons
A)Buff the amount of time the flare stays on sky.
and/or
B)Reduce cost to 5, remove chance of killing entities or doing damage. A cheap intel mine. If it's too spamable, just make it so it's has a cooldown so you can just build several of them on little amount of time.

Counter barrage
Mortar, Panzerwerfer, MHT and Howitzer:

A) I don't have the actual stats neither i know how much it needs to be improved, in order to make it more appealing than autoattack/ground fire.


Tracking
Zis, Little AT gun, Su85, Su76-ISU152

Ninja nerfed, it had it's sight increase remove.
A) Give it back with muni cost increase if needed or with a reduce time.

Vehicle crew self repair T70 version

A)Make it work as the PIV from OKW. Make it full repair while increasing the danger of doing so while mid combat.
B) Or just, you know, make it as it is now but: reduce even further speed, make it fully repair the tank and/or reduce repair speed.


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Now i'm gonna follow it up with units i think should get something different from what they get actually.


PG:
Vet1: splitting part of the receive accuracy bonus they get from vet2
Vet2: RA + Cooldown (what they get now) + Self Healing when out of combat
I thought about a similar ability as the Stormtroopers have, but that would take out any flavor they might have (they aren't great)


Assault Grens:
-If anyone played the campaign, they might remember that Shocktroops had an ability that let them supress units while slowly moving towards the target.
-Or the same ability Paratroopers get when upgraded with Thompsons.

Stormtroopers:
-Vet1: increased capping speed.

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Penals
-Vet1: what about a "zeal" like ability. Increased performance when the squad has fewer members.

Guards
-Vet1: HTD or defensive stance (like the one you get on the No retreat no surrender commander)

Shocktroops
-One of the few units that i don't want to add another ability that would increase the performance of the unit, since i think it is now on a "fine" balance ATM.
-If i think of anything, what about vet1 makes smoke nade stop vehicles from firing (like US smoke nade).

Partisans n Irregulars
-Move some of the vet2 buffs into vet1
-Vet2: increase number of members by 1
OR
-Here i'm a bit more creative. Dunno if theres any way of implementing. On a similar fashion to Paratroopers, what about letting them reinforce after setting one house as a "reinforce point" or from the one they had been deployed.

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Ostwind + M5 (when upgraded with AA)
-Increase range/effectiveness of AA capabilities, doesn't move or engage any other threats.

Panzerwerfer:
-While counterbarrage could be improved, what about changing it for a fire denial barrage, like the one from the nebelwerfer from coh1?

KV1-KV2-KV8-IS2:
ATM i can think of something that wouldnt tilt too much the balance or performance of the unit while remaining logical to what it is expected from the unit.

It's a bit late here so i'll end it up.
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1000th post

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Edit1

251 Halftrack:
Vet1: supply medical kit. For 45muni start healing everyone on X range from the HT. Movement or combat stops the ability.

KV-2: 152mm Barrage- Fires three shells out to 100 range. Can only be activated when deployed in artillery mode. 80 munitions.
"Personal Edit": make it work as Bunker busting from Brummbar

KV-1: Man the Guns- Rate of fire increased by 30%, movement speed cut in half. 50 munitions, remains active continuously until deactivated, much like Take Aim on the 57mm.

+1

Great ideas all of them. I'd love Zeal for penals.

Very nice work, it's pretty annoying that a lot of the vet abilities are boring and rather pointless right now. The 251 halftrack, SU85, and SU76 have pretty bad vet abilities too, maybe those could be reworked?

KV1-KV2-KV8-IS2:
ATM i can think of something that wouldnt tilt too much the balance or performance of the unit while remaining logical to what it is expected from the unit.

Here are a couple I thought up:
KV-2: 152mm Barrage- Fires three shells out to 100 range. Can only be activated when deployed in artillery mode. 80 munitions. Short cooldown, so you can make use of the hundreds of munitions Industry tends to float.

KV-8: Flame-wall- Shoots a wall of fire in a 45 degree cone for 10 seconds- think dragon tank flame wall from cnc generals. 60 munitions. KV-8 cannot move for the duration of ability.

KV-1, IS-2: Man the Guns- Rate of fire increased by 30%, movement speed cut in half. 50 munitions, remains active continuously until deactivated, much like Take Aim on the 57mm.

The 251 halftrack, SU85, and SU76 have pretty bad vet abilities too, maybe those could be reworked?

I don't think that tracking is bad if it worked as it did previously. Su76 needs a huge overhaul on the unit itself rather than only the tracking ability.

Regarding the 251 HT, i used a couple of times the ability on the times of FHT/Vet2 KV8. Right now, as how the unit plays, i think a munition cost ability working as the ambulance from USF could work.

251 Halftrack:
Vet1: supply medical kit. For 45muni start healing everyone on X range from the HT. Movement or combat stops the ability.

Here are a couple I thought up:
KV-2: 152mm Barrage- Fires three shells out to 100 range. Can only be activated when deployed in artillery mode. 80 munitions. Short cooldown, so you can make use of the hundreds of munitions Industry tends to float.

KV-8: Flame-wall- Shoots a wall of fire in a 45 degree cone for 10 seconds- think dragon tank flame wall from cnc generals. 60 munitions. KV-8 cannot move for the duration of ability.

KV-1, IS-2: Man the Guns- Rate of fire increased by 30%, movement speed cut in half. 50 munitions, remains active continuously until deactivated, much like Take Aim on the 57mm.

KV2: i guess it can be equal to the Brummbar ability. Bunker busting barrage.

KV8: i think an area denial ability (fire working with DOT on a zone) should work better

KV1/IS2: yeah that kinda makes sense. But again, i don't want an ability which would boost too much the performance of units which are on a fine line (IS2). It's should be pretty fine with the KV1

Flare mines are awesome. I have no idea why you would want to change them. The only thing I would do is not have them on every single soviet infantry unit.

Flare mines are awesome. I have no idea why you would want to change them. The only thing I would do is not have them on every single soviet infantry unit.

If they were awesome, i guess i should had seen them use more often.

If they were awesome, i guess i should had seen them use more often.

Watch my replays, I use them all the time. Or better, try using them yourself. The intel+reasonable chance to kill a model is amazing.

The only reason not to use these mines is when you don't have enough micro to plant mines while managing your army. Making them cheaper and less useful is only going to make less people use it, not more.

The reason we rarely see trip wire flares used is because they are still a micro sink. The amount of micro to place a single flare is rarely worth the effect on the battle that flare has. Instead of placing a flare that might kill one or two soldiers IF a squad happens to walk over it those conscripts could be off capping, building green cover, or fighting elsewhere on the map. If trip wire flares were made more potent but also more expensive I think we'd see them a lot more often.

Another alternative would be to make trip wire flares function like booby trap point. When a squad walks into the capture point it would detonate the trip wire flare killing a man or two and launching a flare showing you exactly what is trying to cap your point.

Making them cheaper and less useful is only going to make less people use it, not more.

That was just one option. Make it more of a 5muni intel mine rather than somehow paying an extra 5 for MAYBE killing a model.

If it reliably killed 1 model, it would be too cost effective. Thats why i also said, that maybe just a buff on the time the flare is up wouldn't be out of the mind but that wouldn't make it more attractive.

ON the other hand, making it reliable kill 1 model and increasing it to 15muni wouldn't be that bad either.

I guess at this point i think we should agree to disagree, regarding this ability.

+100 we need some actual incentives to keep your troops alive. Vet abilities is a great idea, copy pasting said abilities is not.

The amount of micro to place a single flare is rarely worth the effect on the battle that flare has. Instead of placing a flare that might kill one or two soldiers IF a squad happens to walk over it those conscripts could be off capping, building green cover, or fighting elsewhere on the map.

You can place flare trip mines while capping a point just as easily as you can just cap the point. All it takes is pressing 1 extra hotkey. People place mines and demo charges all the time while they cap points, flare trip mines are placed just as easily.

Once you get the hang of frequently placing flare trip mines, you will probably find yourself thinking "I should place some flare trip mines!" even when you are not capping a point.

It's just something that takes some getting used to. Abilities that are fine should not be changed just because players can't be arsed to pour some extra APM in their play. This is not starcraft, you are not constantly maxed out on APM.

You can place flare trip mines while capping a point just as easily as you can just cap the point. All it takes is pressing 1 extra hotkey. People place mines and demo charges all the time while they cap points, flare trip mines are placed just as easily.

Once you get the hang of frequently placing flare trip mines, you will probably find yourself thinking "I should place some flare trip mines!" even when you are not capping a point.

It's just something that takes some getting used to. Abilities that are fine should not be changed just because players can't be arsed to pour some extra APM in their play. This is not starcraft, you are not constantly maxed out on APM.

I think we both agree using trip wire flares is a matter of how good a player's APM and micro is. You can either manage to fit trip wire flares into your micro or not. I am glad you are able to integrate the mines into your gameplay (and I will have to experiment to see if I can as well) but I believe it is safe to say you are the anomaly and not the norm in this regard. My suggestion is to merely increase the ease of use of the mines so that the community at large is better able to take advantage of them.

Once you get the hang of frequently placing flare trip mines, you will probably find yourself thinking "I should place some flare trip mines!" even when you are not capping a point.

Do you get it for the intel or for the casual model kill? For me they are a munition drain, not great for the "benefits" it might provide, which have consequences on the long run.

If they broke ice, i guess that would had been something

A little bit of both. At first I just placed them in capping circles. It kills a guy just over half the time from my experiences. The intel + the chance to kill makes it a lot easier to know what kind of units you are going to need to fend of that capping squad.

Once you get used to placing them, you can start to place them on flanking routes or near building entrenches to see if you are getting surprised by JLI and the likes.

These days it's also a lot easier to place them because you are no longer required to have vision on where you are going to place it. You can order them to place one in the Fog Of War, and have them shift-move to some other stuff. You could not do this at first because you could only place them where you had sight, which made it a big hassle to place them.

But anyway, we are steering too far off topic. The opening post has many great suggestions (bar the flare mines in my opinion ), lets focus on those again!

SU-76M - Site Main Gun: Locks down the unit (immobile, but can rotate in place); boosts le sight range, boosts le damage, reduces le reload time, boosts le penetration (not by ridiculous amounts, mind you), like, oh, IDK, the Marder--aka, the SU-76M when it was actually useful

Also consider Rapid Fire (a-la the Geschutzwagen) or adding a pintle mounted DT LMG (similar to the MG42 on the Geschutz)--I don't know if the SU-76M was equipped with some way to mount a pintle MG, but it couldn't hurt.

Some sort of suppressive fire ability to the T-34/76 that increases the burst duration/accuracy/burst duration+accuracy of its hull and co-axial DT machineguns, but increases the reload time of the main gun (nothing huge, maybe a 10% penalty for the main gun)? Something to make it as effective in the AI department as the Pz IV/Sherman.

251 Halftrack:
Vet1: supply medical kit. For 45muni start healing everyone on X range from the HT. Movement or combat stops the ability.

Another possibility could be to have it upgrade to a medical 251 instead. I'm unsure of how it would exactly work. I just don't quite like the idea of something that can effectively engage then after the battle reinforce and heal all infantry around it.

Since we're getting away from traditional, one vet abilities fits all here's some random ideas

Ostheer Panther: APCR Round- Target ability, enemy vehicles only. Fires a single shot with increased accuracy, penetration, and slightly longer range(55?) than the standard shell. Cost 30-50 munitions.

Panzer IV Command Tank: Mobile Command(Passive): Command tank defensive modifiers now apply around the tank outside of friendly territory in a moderate radius. When the tank or affected units are not in a friendly sector they receive 10% instead of the full 20%.

M5 Halftrack(stock): Forward Post- Locks down the M5, with one or two medics that slowly heal troops out of combat. Would pick-up wounded for a minor manpower (third to a half of the model's cost) refund if they ever brought the medic retrieval system back.
Quad: As stated increases AA range, but when stationary against ground, increases its area suppression and reduces reload.

Conscripts(in addition to trip-wire): Rapid Rate: Target ability. Accuracy of the squad is reduced, but cooldown is decreased. A infantry squad being fired upon by other units while targeted by this ability have increased received accuracy modifiers as the conscripts keep them distracted. (Does not stack)

Here is an idea I've always liked:

PGrens: Smoke Grenade - Throw a smoke grenade similar in performance and cost to the shock troops smoke grenade. This would make it easier for vet1 PGs to close on the enemy or counter MGs.

While imaging new abilities is something i took in mind, i want if possible focus first of things that are possible to do now by just taking mechanics which are already in the game.

For example:
-Adding new members to partisans ala RE
-Medic ability for HT (similar to ambulance). Should be disabled if upgraded with flamer*
*This needs a new overhaul. Timing, price and/or performance.


Something that i didn't mention on the first post, is that all veterancy tree on the new WFA (buff and abilities) seems to be had been thought better than vanilla factions.
I guess is the incoming revamp of the factions we might expect a change, meanwhile here we can give some ideas.