Are kubelwagens OP

http://www.coh2.org/replay/24184/esports

You be the judge.

Taking out Kübelwagen with the M3 is not very problematic, utilizing the back .50 cal of the M3 can melt down a Kübel quite effectively.
I flank them and drive behind them, since you have two .50 cals its not really a problem to position your M3 properly.

However us forces have no direct counter to it. Rifle company does a good job and a quick M20 is the best solution.
It's not really problematic if you can avoid blobbing and force the Kübel constantly to reposition.

With Ostheer you have to play a likewise strategy against M3 heavy play. Keep your units together and wait for T2.
Nobody does complain about that.

Most replies I read feel like "uhhh the Kübel finally turned viable from it's former piece of shit status, I actually have to adapt... NERF PLEASE"

I never got the ''Kubel was useless before'' rhetoric. It was a perfectly viable unit that had strengths and weaknesses, like any MG in the game. I used them to great effect in combination with Sturms pre-patch. It tended to die by the 10 minute mark, but most MGs save the vetted MG42 become less useful by that point anyway.

Post-patch, however, it's been overbuffed into ''pay 240 MP to dominate early game unless opponent out-microes you or builds very specific counters and rolls the dice''. My games against OKW have become much more difficult between them and the buffed Sturms, and my games as OKW are often facerolls as I a-move my Kebels and pound most Allied openings to dust. If a Soviet goes T1, I laugh at his face, bust out the AA HT to which he has no counter whatsoever and it's often gg right there. Against USF it's even easier, until the M20 comes out the Kubel has pretty much free reign as the Volks go around and cap the map. And since the US player could not win the early game, the one point in the match where he's supposed to be at an advantage, even if he destroys the Kubel and comes back I usually have a Puma, HT, and/or elite infantry by then.

I feel the unit plugs the OKW's weaknesses too well. OKW is supposed to struggle early game, since their late game is so boss. But between the reliable Volks, powerful Sturms and the now monster Kubel, they really don't have any gaps in their early game at all, and that's without having to commit to any building/doctrine like the Soviets are forced to do. Playing as them feels significantly easier than playing as any other faction, Ostheer included.

I never got the ''Kubel was useless before'' rhetoric. It was a perfectly viable unit that had strengths and weaknesses, like any MG in the game. I used them to great effect in combination with Sturms pre-patch. It tended to die by the 10 minute mark, but most MGs save the vetted MG42 become less useful by that point anyway.

Post-patch, however, it's been overbuffed into ''pay 240 MP to dominate early game unless opponent out-microes you or builds very specific counters and rolls the dice''. My games against OKW have become much more difficult between them and the buffed Sturms, and my games as OKW are often facerolls as I a-move my Kebels and pound most Allied openings to dust. If a Soviet goes T1, I laugh at his face, bust out the AA HT to which he has no counter whatsoever and it's often gg right there. Against USF it's even easier, until the M20 comes out the Kubel has pretty much free reign as the Volks go around and cap the map. And since the US player could not win the early game, the one point in the match where he's supposed to be at an advantage, even if he destroys the Kubel and comes back I usually have a Puma, HT, and/or elite infantry by then.

I feel the unit plugs the OKW's weaknesses too well. OKW is supposed to struggle early game, since their late game is so boss. But between the reliable Volks, powerful Sturms and the now monster Kubel, they really don't have any gaps in their early game at all, and that's without having to commit to any building/doctrine like the Soviets are forced to do. Playing as them feels significantly easier than playing as any other faction, Ostheer included.

That's a delusion, one that would ensure this game NEVER reaches E-Sports. There has to be an early game, no one side should have an advantage in early game. Without the early game, no mid or late game can exist, and this would just become boring 2-5 minute skirmishes.

Play hard, play smart in mid and late game and you might just be able to make a dramatic comeback or a dominating victory.

Unit composition, wise spending on both Defensive and Offensive positions will allow for a better game overall.


It's why a smart German player will often have a couple bunkers and minefields and ATG's placed behind a specific line as a fall back position, which will either draw you to respond and weaken yourself, or force you to go around and weaken your position on that front.

The best response there is to try and set up a defensive line of your own and harass or build up to overwhelm the Germans position.. or get into an artillery battle, either way.

Sierra, you are asking for US to be equal to OKW/Ostheer in early game without also suggesting that US be equally strong in late game. Effectively, you want a return to March Deployment conditions where axis was equal or had an advantage across all stages of the game.

The reason why you can sit back a little as OKW/Ostheer is because you have a strong late game and can survive without equal or superior map control early game. US needs to do well early game to survive against axis late game. This is basic stuff and you'd know it if you played all four factions.

Besides that, my personal preference would be for all factions being equal is all stages of the game.

Anohter probelm is when USF gets supressed by this shit or a hmg, after you use smoke grenade block their sight, your RM can't get unsuppressed even a pioneer shoot at u. so the only thing you can do it retreat. so wot's the f**king point of using this smoke grenade, this is really annoying.

exactly ... even if you get a AT nade into the kubel it retreats and gets repaired in 2 second by sturmpios + gets vet and with that vet goes the chance to ever scratch it again .. by the time i recive a sturat or something i get a volks blob + shreks in my face ...

I think the Kubelwagen is probably a bit underpowered since it can't capture territory. For that amount of manpower I'd expect it to at least be able to decap like the Sentinel in DoW2.
I personally would prefer if it had a LMG upgrade as well. Germans had so many LMGs, they must've surely made a twin-linked MG34 for those Kubels. I guess that is something the history fans here could back me up with!

Show Spoiler

Edit: After a short discussion Brad, Twister and IpKai suggested a twin linked Lascannon as upgrade for the twin linked LMG upgrade. I think that's a fine idea!

I think the Kubelwagen is probably a bit underpowered since it can't capture territory. For that amount of manpower I'd expect it to at least be able to decap like the Sentinel in DoW2.
I personally would prefer if it had a LMG upgrade as well. Germans had so many LMGs, they must've surely made a twin-linked MG34 for those Kubels. I guess that is something the history fans here could back me up with!

Show Spoiler

Edit: After a short discussion Brad, Twister and IpKai suggested a twin linked Lascannon as upgrade for the twin linked LMG upgrade. I think that's a fine idea!

How about adding stomp as a vet 1 ability?

Not sure how a Kwagen would stomp - maybe if it was like a pimp mobile and could move up and down?

http://www.coh2.org/replay/24184/esports

That's not the kind of behaviour I expected from a developer.
But well, now I understand most of the recent changes in last patches.

fix what? now OKW has strong early middle and late game, is it call a fix, if it is there are too much things need to be fix for USF

That's a delusion, one that would ensure this game NEVER reaches E-Sports. There has to be an early game, no one side should have an advantage in early game. Without the early game, no mid or late game can exist, and this would just become boring 2-5 minute skirmishes.

Play hard, play smart in mid and late game and you might just be able to make a dramatic comeback or a dominating victory.

Unit composition, wise spending on both Defensive and Offensive positions will allow for a better game overall.


It's why a smart German player will often have a couple bunkers and minefields and ATG's placed behind a specific line as a fall back position, which will either draw you to respond and weaken yourself, or force you to go around and weaken your position on that front.

The best response there is to try and set up a defensive line of your own and harass or build up to overwhelm the Germans position.. or get into an artillery battle, either way.

Do look on my playercard and see I play all faction, and considering my rank I don't think I suck either, before lecturing me on how to play. I play germans, my ratio is probably around 60/40 in favor of allies (mostly because getting games as Allies is much faster) but I play Axis a lot. I know how they roll. And in my perspective as a part time OKW player, I find the Kubel overpowered.

The problem is that, what you suggest would require Relic redisign the game (or at least WFA) from the ground up. As it is, USF have a late game disadvantage, thanks to the fragility of their vehicles and reliance on vetted rifles, and OKW have a late game advantage thanks to their superior veterancy, bevy of elite infantry and armada of powerful tanks, many of which are non-doctrinal.

The vanilla COH2 armies don't have a significant advantage at any point of the game (as it should be). WFA, however, changed things around and introduced factions that do. With this patch, which buffed both the Sturms and Kubels, Relic changed the dynamic and plugged one of OKW's few weaknesses (so-so early game) and indeed, probably made their early game the single best out of all 4 factions, while not touching the fact that they are hideously powerful once they manage to get the ball rolling. So as Allies, and especially as US, you are often fighting an uphill battle as soon as the game begins, and whis is magnified in team games.

The vanilla COH2 armies don't have a significant advantage at any point of the game (as it should be). WFA, however, changed things around and introduced factions that do. With this patch, which buffed both the Sturms and Kubels, Relic changed the dynamic and plugged one of OKW's few weaknesses (so-so early game) and indeed, probably made their early game the single best out of all 4 factions, while not touching the fact that they are hideously powerful once they manage to get the ball rolling. So as Allies, and especially as US, you are often fighting an uphill battle as soon as the game begins, and whis is magnified in team games.

The Kubel part I get, but Sturmpios? In what way were they buffed? In fact I think they were nerfed(less DPS effectiveness at long range[still great short/med range though]).

Do look on my playercard and see I play all faction, and considering my rank I don't think I suck either, before lecturing me on how to play. I play germans, my ratio is probably around 60/40 in favor of allies (mostly because getting games as Allies is much faster) but I play Axis a lot. I know how they roll. And in my perspective as a part time OKW player, I find the Kubel overpowered.

The problem is that, what you suggest would require Relic redisign the game (or at least WFA) from the ground up. As it is, USF have a late game disadvantage, thanks to the fragility of their vehicles and reliance on vetted rifles, and OKW have a late game advantage thanks to their superior veterancy, bevy of elite infantry and armada of powerful tanks, many of which are non-doctrinal.

The vanilla COH2 armies don't have a significant advantage at any point of the game (as it should be). WFA, however, changed things around and introduced factions that do. With this patch, which buffed both the Sturms and Kubels, Relic changed the dynamic and plugged one of OKW's few weaknesses (so-so early game) and indeed, probably made their early game the single best out of all 4 factions, while not touching the fact that they are hideously powerful once they manage to get the ball rolling. So as Allies, and especially as US, you are often fighting an uphill battle as soon as the game begins, and whis is magnified in team games.

Exactly !

The Kubel part I get, but Sturmpios? In what way were they buffed? In fact I think they were nerfed(less DPS effectiveness at long range[still great short/med range though]).

They got tougher in exchange for less DPS, but for an assault unit I think that's actually a buff. They still got lots of DPS, the highest on an early game unit now that AssEngies are nerfed. Same reason people got defensive veterancy on PE MP44 squads back in CoH1; close range units already have DPS, what they need is toughness to actually use it.

It's not a buff that's as big as the Kubel's, granted. But I still think it's a slight buff.

They got tougher in exchange for less DPS, but for an assault unit I think that's actually a buff. They still got lots of DPS, the highest on an early game unit now that AssEngies are nerfed. Same reason people got defensive veterancy on PE MP44 squads back in CoH1; close range units already have DPS, what they need is toughness to actually use it.

It's not a buff that's as big as the Kubel's, granted. But I still think it's a slight buff.

Ah, I see.

Yes, Kubel and Sturmpios in unison will destroy any single Soviet T1 squad or unit. I realize we are not comparing units in vacuum and you are right there, but if Sturmpios are nosing around to support the Kubel you should really have a Conscript or Penal squad inside the M3, which would absolutely murder the Kubel if they stayed at long range.

That is the mistake I see many making in their argument, assuming that putting a unit in the sc will win you the engagement. No, it does not, because again he also has the sturmpios next to his kubel and the combined dmg from those 2 units is way more than the combined damage of an m3 plus a cons/penal squad, especially so because units in m3 get a 50% accuracy reduction.

You also advice staying at range with a cons squad, but that will gain you what? The meager 4.4 dps they output at long range reduced by half because of the 50% penalty for riding in the m3? That's like 2.2 dps with practically no penetration while shooting at the front of a kubel.

What am I reading here is unrealistic and biased. Sturmpios buffed. Lol. Did you people use them actualy?
And why is kubel OP? Because finaly it has a use? My guess is that spammers will allways complain about efficient supressing units. If Mg34 will become again what it was before this patch and will be put into Hq instead of kubel, and kubel will become doctrinary, I bet that almost instantly we'll see a "Mg34 is OP" thread.
Also, you are not considering any type of compensation for Sturmpio NERF. Yes, NERF not BUFF. They are NERFED because:
Now have to close at punching distance to actually kill aka they will loose models quiclky than before while REINFOCEMENT TIME, REINFORCEMENT COST and UNIT COST are the same.

Nerf kubel, let the sturmpios like they are now and it's GG for OKW in 10 minutes from game start.

Other opinions: "balanced startgame while unbalanced lategame (because in lategame OKW is OP)?!?!"
Helooo.... OKW has 66% fuel income penalty, which in fact is MORE because OKW cannot build caches. You can boost your fuel income with no penalty while OKW cannot. Does these things not ring any bells? Are OKW players the only ones condemned to have superior micro and skill (or else is game over)?! Intense micro for kubel, or game over. Intense micro for Puma or game over. And so on.

I'm sincerely wondering, what is wrong with you guys?