Are kubelwagens OP

What am I reading here is unrealistic and biased. Sturmpios buffed. Lol. Did you people use them actualy?

They are NERFED because:
Now have to close at punching distance to actually kill aka they will loose models quiclky than before while REINFOCEMENT TIME, REINFORCEMENT COST and UNIT COST are the same.

Those are the changes to the sturmpios:


Added a received accuracy modifier of 0.87
Near range distance from 8 to 3
Mid range distance from 16 to 15
Far mid distance from 35 to 28


Contrary to what you are saying, the received accuracy modifier makes them take less damage as they close in to do their damage.

As for the kubel, there is plenty of information in this topic on why its op. Here is one useful post:

http://www.coh2.org/topic/23974/are-kubelwagens-op/post/215530

Those are the changes to the sturmpios:


Added a received accuracy modifier of 0.87
Near range distance from 8 to 3
Mid range distance from 16 to 15
Far mid distance from 35 to 28


Contrary to what you are saying, the received accuracy modifier makes them take less damage as they close in to do their damage.

As for the kubel, there is plenty of information in this topic on why its op. Here is one useful post:

http://www.coh2.org/topic/23974/are-kubelwagens-op/post/215530

That accuracy modifier doesn't compensate these changes, play them and you will see. They have to behave now like ppsh cons or shock troopers while they are 4 models, unlike shocks and cons. In addition they have no body armor like shocks, reinforcement is alot more expensive compared to cons + reinfocement time = aka for ever (they cannot be brought back into fight quickly). So the disadvanatges are more than the advantage granted by the received accuracy modifier, and this is obvious, in my view.

That accuracy modifier doesn't compensate these changes, play them and you will see. They have to behave now like ppsh cons or shock troopers while they are 4 models, unlike shocks and cons. In addition they have no body armor like shocks, reinforcement is alot more expensive compared to cons + reinfocement time = aka for ever (they cannot be brought back into fight quickly). So the disadvanatges are more than the advantage granted by the received accuracy modifier, and this is obvious, in my view.

What you are saying is not correct, but I do not want to change the topic to sturmpios. Instead I will answer the part that ties in with the kubel. Your sturmpios will take practically no damage as they close in to kill suppressed units (because of suppressed units dps penalty). And the changes I suggested to balance the kubel will not reduce its effectiveness in this scenario. It will just make it less able to go solo and avoid flanks so easily.

http://www.coh2.org/topic/23974/are-kubelwagens-op/post/215963

That accuracy modifier doesn't compensate these changes, play them and you will see. They have to behave now like ppsh cons or shock troopers while they are 4 models, unlike shocks and cons.

Noooooooooo -.-

The range you want to fight at, because the Sturmpios excel there depends on your opponent. Assault Rifles are neither a dedicated long nor a dedicated short range weapon, so their performance is not as great as either of those at their respectable range. Yet they are good on all ranges, meaning you can always fight on the ranges that a long or short ranged weapon is not good at and win. Forcefully always trying to move to close range with Sturmpios (and similarly PGrens) means they perform way worse than they could. Most of the time staying at ~15 range is more than sufficient. 15 is almost half of the whole firing range (35). At that range they win (per cost) almost all engagements. Trying to close in more usually results in you losing entities, so that even though you are at a closer range, you still won't deal as much DPS as previously.



Red is the old Sturmpio DPS, blue is the new.
Yellow is the difference in percent of those two and green is just a straight line at 13. Any range where the yellow line is below the green one the Sturmpios perform BETTER than the old ones. Any line where it's above they perform worse.

That means 6 to 14 is the range where they perform worse, outside of that boundary the same or actually better. Since units tend to go crazy at ranges around 5 (they will jump around a lot instead of shooting) that basically means what Sturmpios got was a nerf at close range and a buff at all others.

What does that green line mean, their received accuracy ?

Red is the old Sturmpio DPS, blue is the new.
Yellow is the difference in percent of those two and green is just a straight line at 13. Any range where the yellow line is below the green one the Sturmpios perform BETTER than the old ones. Any line where it's above they perform worse.

That means 6 to 14 is the range where they perform worse, outside of that boundary the same or actually better. Since units tend to go crazy at ranges around 5 (they will jump around a lot instead of shooting) that basically means what Sturmpios got was a nerf at close range and a buff at all others.

Wow! That's a valuable chart you put there. Sooo.... in english : If I attack from hugging distance it will be great (except i lose models quickly). If I attack from middle-far or far distance it's still ok. But if I attack from middle distance (aka 5-15), this won't be to smart. But from far distance aren't they still outclassed by rifles? They are, I'm pretty sure about it, the conclusion being the fact that I should still use them for hugging distance .

15 isn't far distance. At that range, and a bit beyond, sturmpios will do extremely well vs riflemen. Thanks to Milka's post, this is really obvious. His post lays out very clearly why using Sturmpioneers at extreme close range in an equal engagement is a bad idea.

Thanks for the chart, Milka. So as you folks can see, in exchange for a nerf to very close range capabilities (which is more of a role change, really), Sturms got a buff to all other ranges, as well as a durability buff. So let's stop saying they were objectively nerfed.

Noooooooooo -.-

The range you want to fight at, because the Sturmpios excel there depends on your opponent. Assault Rifles are neither a dedicated long nor a dedicated short range weapon, so their performance is not as great as either of those at their respectable range. Yet they are good on all ranges, meaning you can always fight on the ranges that a long or short ranged weapon is not good at and win. Forcefully always trying to move to close range with Sturmpios (and similarly PGrens) means they perform way worse than they could. Most of the time staying at ~15 range is more than sufficient. 15 is almost half of the whole firing range (35). At that range they win (per cost) almost all engagements. Trying to close in more usually results in you losing entities, so that even though you are at a closer range, you still won't deal as much DPS as previously.



Red is the old Sturmpio DPS, blue is the new.
Yellow is the difference in percent of those two and green is just a straight line at 13. Any range where the yellow line is below the green one the Sturmpios perform BETTER than the old ones. Any line where it's above they perform worse.

That means 6 to 14 is the range where they perform worse, outside of that boundary the same or actually better. Since units tend to go crazy at ranges around 5 (they will jump around a lot instead of shooting) that basically means what Sturmpios got was a nerf at close range and a buff at all others.

Valuable chart is valuable, but also pretty much perfectly illustrates how sad Sturmpioneers are at the ranges they used to be most valuable at.

What does that green line mean, their received accuracy ?

Yes

Wow! That's a valuable chart you put there. Sooo.... in english : If I attack from hugging distance it will be great (except i lose models quickly). If I attack from middle-far or far distance it's still ok. But if I attack from middle distance (aka 5-15), this won't be to smart. But from far distance aren't they still outclassed by rifles? They are, I'm pretty sure about it, the conclusion being the fact that I should still use them for hugging distance .

I wouldn't say 5 to 15 is middle.

0 to 15 is usually where close range weapons perform best.
20 to 35 is where long range weapons perform best.

Mid range weapons are weird in the sense that they do not have any range where they excel, they tend to be good at all ranges, so it fully depends on what they are fighting.

The following looks a bit weird, I know. Just look at it, then read what's written below, then look at it again. It's the DPS of a target squad divided by the Sturmpio DPS and then normed. The higher the value, the better is it for the Sturmpios to fight the targeted squad at that range. As usual it's not always worth it to fight at the best range if there is cover at an okayish range or if you have to close in under fire. Besides that keep in mind that 10 range is the magic number where cover gets ignored.



Vs Cons: 0 to 10 range is best.

Vs Con + PPsH41: 15 to 20

Vs Penal: 13 to 17

Vs Shocks: 30 to 35 range

Vs Riflemen: Anything below 15

Vs Riflemen + BAR: 10 to 15, but anything below 15 is okay

Vs Riflmen + M1919A6: The closer the better.

Vs Paratroopers + Thompson: 18 to 24

Edit: Added Paras with Thompson and Shock troops to emphasize that going closer is not always better.

Nice. Thanks Milka, great info. Owe you one.

Cow,

That chart deserves its own thread and a sticky on top of the balance section of the forums. Great work.

"Not the hero we deserve, but the one that we need"

-While i know that rule of 10m, how it is exactly cover ignored ? Is it directly or gradual?
(i guess red cover still applies)

Sounds exactly like maxim spam to me...

except 2 is not spam , for any unit , maxim spam is considered over 4 units of maxims , which if you consider the costs of maxims + the tech is like 2.5 times the cost of 2 kubels and many more times the time required to produce , move to position and coordinate

Sounds exactly like fanboy to me ...

I just found this on Reddit, i guess a change of mood is not bad.



Praise it.

OMG Elchino sooo sooo true lol.

I just found this on Reddit, i guess a change of mood is not bad.



Praise it.

Funny. But C for Concsripts? It's 2014 use the damn grid key layout.

Kubel-jesus is just way beyond OP, get two of these and rush any Sovjet/USF player, instant win within 10mins

Any chance of a replay, please?

I just found this on Reddit, i guess a change of mood is not bad.



Praise it.

Am I the only one who noticed the Illuminati Pyramid in the background?

Are kubelwagens OP?

Yes.