Are kubelwagens OP

Nerf it pls, Relic

It is overperforming for only 240 Manpower and OKW has cheap units and very effective. Example: Folks 235 cost manpower. It can reach Vet 5. Think about it.

Yeah, Steiner, but....Relic has only just buffed this unit in the recent patch...and made a hotfix as well....so they are unlikely (IMO) to follow your strictures

Below are the kubel key stats in comparison to other early light vehicles. Figures in red highlight the balance problem with this unit.

I am impressed with this kubel stats .

Wow, what are the chances without micro of a Kubel defeating an M3 ?

I think that in its current role the Kübelwagen should not have the 50 vision range shared by scout units.
Why? Because with the recent changes it was moved more into the role of a HMG. HMGs have a quite large firing range. So large, in fact, that they can shoot farther than they can see (35 vision for infantry). This is afaik intentional, so they require a spotter to function to their fullest.

If the Kübelwagen had lower vision range, it'd be far easier to flank and would be a bit less effective at long range suppression (at least while without a spotter), similar to HMGs. Relying on a spotter for full efficiency would also mean it would be a less efficient harasser (drive into enemy lines, suppress/damage lone squads, drive out) and using it to harass would be a greater risk.


To allow it to spot for other units (like a Raketenwerfer) later on, I'd additionally (would be nice but not necessary) suggest to either:
1. change one of its vet boni to be the removed vision range
OR 2. add "additional vision range while stationary" to one of its vet boni
OR 3. move the vision range onto the vet 1 ability and remove/reduce suppression while the ability is active... this would be more interesting but possibly a balance problem. It'd basically switch into harassment/sniper hunting mode.

No, the thing can't carry personnel and it is far too flimsy, the only thing it's good for is to suppress in the very early game and then die.

right click>select view for bigger picture

right click>select view for bigger picture

So your opponent was stupid enough to run into the range of a Vet-5 Kubel and sit there suppressed until pinned.

Seems like the job of suppression was performed nicely, well played.

So your opponent was stupid enough to run into the range of a Vet-5 Kubel and sit there suppressed until pinned.

Seems like the job of suppression was performed nicely, well played.

Who told you his opponent saw it, kubel has 50 sight, infatry 35, the kubel will start firing before he knew it was there. Also why do u think he was there for so long, a vet 5 kubel has longer burst, more accuracy, and more suppression.

Wow, what are the chances without micro of a Kubel defeating an M3 ?

wanna test it with me?

So your opponent was stupid enough to run into the range of a Vet-5 Kubel and sit there suppressed until pinned.

Seems like the job of suppression was performed nicely, well played.

Why the Allied Player has verytime to be GOOD? It is not beginner-friendly. German easier.

Below are the kubel key stats in comparison to other early light vehicles. Figures in red highlight the balance problem with this unit.




Looking at those numbers in the order listed above there are several problems including:

Target size (10) is too small, which makes hitting kubel with an AT gun at far distance (accuracy .04 for zis) hard. You have basically 40% chance of hitting kubel. And getting closer doesn't improve your chances so much. You have to be right next to it to get a 60% chance of hitting it. This unit needs at least a 15 target size to make at guns effective against it.

Acceleration at 4.5 is the fastest that I know of in the game and only the OKW puma has this kind of acceleration. In comparison all other early light vehicles have around 2 acceleration (less than half). This is the main reason why the kubel can avoid counters effectively and get out of flanks so easily. This number need to be brought down to be inline with other light vehicles.

Sight at 50 is the same for all of those units but given the kubel is essentially a mobile mg it should not have that much sight. This enables it to go solo, hunting unsuspecting units and suppressing them before they know its there (infantry have 35 sight), and this is exactly whats happening now. Sight should be brought down to at least 35 like all mgs and even I encourage bringing down all support weapons sight to 30, so that they can never go solo and be effective like the maxim is so well know to be.

Damage at 17.4 near and 4.8 far is insane in this unit, and while one can argue that suppressed units take less damage so its not effective as it appears it has almost double the dps of an m3 at near range. Even with less armor the kubel can take on the m3 which requires teching and cost fuel. Damage or penetration need to be reduced on this vehicle.

Penetration is actually higher than the m3 which brings the question why a mobile mg has this kind of pentarion. If damage is left the same this figure needs to go down so that the kubel can't counter everything including its own counters like the m3 and dodge truck.

Looking at those stats and experiencing it in game, the kubel was tuned into a super unit that requires no teching and costs no fuel and can take on all early counters and get out of most flanks with ease. Its combination of acceleration, sight, damage, penetration, and the fact that it requires no setup time like all other mgs and suppresses units before the first burst is complete makes the kubel the perfect example of an over powered unit. I just wonder how long it will take relic to fix this mess. Judging by the last mess (katyusha) it might be soon hopefully.

edit: This unit requires a fuel cost to minimize spamming and or a performance reduction to make it function properly in the early game.

Well you basically nailed it.

right click>select view for bigger picture

A+Moved a blob into a Vet 5 Kubel backed by Volksgrenadiers and Obersoldaten. I have no sympathy and am glad he got his ass handed to him. Blobbing already lets you get away with waaaay more than it should. If anything, him winning would show that the Kubel at it's apex can't even effectively deal with blobbing, similarly to other MG's.

A+Moved a blob into a Vet 5 Kubel backed by Volksgrenadiers and Obersoldaten. I have no sympathy and am glad he got his ass handed to him. Blobbing already lets you get away with waaaay more than it should. If anything, him winning would show that the Kubel at it's apex can't even effectively deal with blobbing, similarly to other MG's.

Exactly what I was saying, well said man.

It should cost fuel. How come that a light car doesn't cost fuel? By far the most useful of the three and it's the cheapest.

Allies cars can't even suppress the enemy like Kubelwagon.

WC51 now being useless at 1CP makes USF vulnerable to it. You have to wait for an early M20 or an enemy error maneuvering the Kubelwagon.

In HelpingHans Stream a Kubelwagon from Fortune managed to survive even a direct hit from a Jackson. Reached Vet 5 and was unstoppable. This means that a Kubelwagon in good hands is just too good and too cheap.

It's only vulnerable when used badly.

A+Moved a blob into a Vet 5 Kubel backed by Volksgrenadiers and Obersoldaten. I have no sympathy and am glad he got his ass handed to him. Blobbing already lets you get away with waaaay more than it should. If anything, him winning would show that the Kubel at it's apex can't even effectively deal with blobbing, similarly to other MG's.

Single mg34/42 would not pen such blob so fast and its pretty risky, because allied player could get lucky and shot gunner with first volley plus like Abdul said kubel got 50 sight-so he start shooting and pinning much earlier then any mg do

Exactly what I was saying, well said man.

Agree, kubel is fine. It encourages tactics and FLANKing. Down with blobbing.

Only problem is there is no counter to Maxim and Sniper as OKW. and Kubel obviously die to maxim EASY

A+Moved a blob into a Vet 5 Kubel backed by Volksgrenadiers and Obersoldaten. I have no sympathy and am glad he got his ass handed to him. Blobbing already lets you get away with waaaay more than it should. If anything, him winning would show that the Kubel at it's apex can't even effectively deal with blobbing, similarly to other MG's.

Is blobbing going out from your HQ sector? the Kubel has better range of sigh, there is no way for the USF player to know where the kubel is before being pinned.

Is blobbing going out from your HQ sector? the Kubel has better range of sigh, there is no way for the USF player to know where the kubel is before being pinned.

So scout before sending your main force?

So scout before sending your main force?

So scout against those Maxims you always complain about?

On Topic: I'm not sure how I feel about the new Kubel. I kinda feel like it almost forces Soviet to go T1 for an M3 just from the threat of it. Just watched Siberian base pin a Soviet player who went T2 start in like 2 minutes on Kholodny.

What happened to Allies having the advantage early game and Axis having the advantage late game? Shouldn't Axis be on the back foot during the early game and not the other way around?


Early game for US: Be ultra careful and maintain proper spacing or a squad will be forced to retreat because of a Kubel and you will be at a disadvantage. Since the Kubel is so fast and comes so early it can be anywhere. Having a squad retreat that early is a big deal.

Late game for US: Be ultra careful or you will lose one of your paper tanks to superior Axis AT and be at a disadvantage.

Who can afford the teching to hard counter a Kubel before a few squads are forced to retreat from this thing?

This is why playing allies is not as fun. You feel like you are on the back foot and dealing with nonsense at all times.

OKW and kubels are fun to play though.

Excellent we have the stats of all early game vehicles in this post. Although, I found it odd that the Scout car still beats the kubelwagen even though the kubelwagen's dps is significantly bigger.