ISU SquadWipe-Foundation

+1 I also think that is the root of the problem.

Heavy tanks are designed in a way that you can effectively counter them only with another heavy tank. So, if an ISU appears and you don't have a Jadgtiger or Elefant commander, you are fucked.

The game will be keeping like that until non-doctrinal tanks couldn't counter doctrinal tanks.

you mean non-doctrinal tanks can counter doctrinal tanks.


doctrinal tanks should be a really unique or cool unit with maybe a slight edge, but can always be countered by a non-doc unit. This game revolves too much around getting that heavy call in. These super units are really frustrating to play against and eclipse every other unit.

If I ruled the world :

-I would give the ISU a toggle button that would allow the unit to fire either AP or HE rounds, with a delay to switch between types. (edit for clarity: the unit would do the same damage as it currently does to the applicable target in each mode, however; it would be ineffective vs other types. For example, while in AP mode the unit would be effective vs vehicles but not infantry.)
-I would reduce the AOE slightly to reduce squad wipes while in HE mode.

I think by doing the above you would retain the value/versatility/uniqueness of the unit while making it susceptible to combined arms.

If I ruled the world :

-I would give the ISU a toggle button that would allow the unit to fire either AP or HE rounds, with a delay to switch between types. (edit for clarity: the unit would do the same damage as it currently does to the applicable target in each mode, however; it would be ineffective vs other types. For example, while in AP mode the unit would be effective vs vehicles but not infantry.)
-I would reduce the AOE slightly to reduce squad wipes while in HE mode.

I think by doing the above you would retain the value/versatility/uniqueness of the unit while making it susceptible to combined arms.

if you ruled the world you're gonna bother with balancing this game? #Priorities

if you ruled the world you're gonna bother with balancing this game? #Priorities

I'm not sure how to reply to this. My post is a suggestion for balancing out the unit by making it less effective vs all unit at all times.

If you don't like the suggestion then lets discuss why.

#Lesstrollingmoreconversationaboutideas

Liked mentioned before, the squadwipe should be removed and compensated with a insta-pinned effect. Sounds like the best solution.

Super tanks needs to be toned down. They ruin the game.

if you ruled the world you're gonna bother with balancing this game? #Priorities

I like!

If I rule the world I would rather go and pick beautiful virgin for myself, not playing this game....

Best 2 options for ISU:

- Lower AOE like somebody in here said and make it have lower range compare to Elephant ( So Ostheer player can have a chance ).

- Make it got Crew shocked like the Jadtiger and have lower range compare to Elephant.

Yes, if you do that ISU will be nerf. But then PLEASE buff the IS2 anti-tank so people would favor it. Don't just nerf 1 thing without balance the other.

And also, IS2 need some better ability rather than the " Capture point " ablity: Tiger got Blitzkrieg + Smoke, King Tiger got " Turret turn faster" + " blitzkrieg" . How the **** does IS2 got " capture point " ???

I rather have something like " Better sight for 30 seconds " or " faster reload ".

I feel like this game call - in tanks is in bad shape:

- Ostheer: Tiger strong against Heavy tank + Infantry / Elephant only strong against heavy tanks but longer range.

- OKW: JadTiger only strong against Tank, got higher range but also get crew shocked if get shot + can't see far like Elephant.

- Soviet: ISU strong against + against medium ( maybe Heavy ) tanks + Long range / IS2 only have good armor ?

As Axis, you shoot an enemy ISU => it pull back to repair => it come back later and then kill your infantry => you need manpower to make them healthy again.

As Allies, enemy Jadtiger/ Elephant shot you => you pull back to repair => you come back later and fuck them up again => you don't need manpower to repair because your CE or teammate will repair ya...

As Al\xis,

i think its funny how awesome all of the axis tanks are, theyre all clearly better than their allied counterparts...

but the isu gets the "OP" thread.

to throw in my opinion. i think the isu is fine as it is. as are all the heavy tanks..

the heavy tanks just need proper techinng requirements

Just used it for the first time in a while. Man its powerful.

That said, given the amount of units the Soviets just don't have a counter for in the OKW line up, I don't care.

There is a bit more to the gun then just caliber, like barrel length, ammo type used ect.

For reference-Sherman uses 75mm gun and panther use 75mm gun. Rest of the story is pretty obvious.
Same case here.

And the 76mm gun is also 75mm, thank you for that

In ISU and SU-76 case, both use exactly the same weapons as their stationary counterparts, ISU uses exactly the same ML-20 howitzer, SU-76 uses exactly the same ZiS-3 gun that T2 AT gun is. Stats are different for balance reasons.

The gun on in the ISU-152 is the ML-20 therefore it would be interesting to compare the two in how they are implemented. The ML-10 in the KV-2 is not the same gun, but fires the same shells so should also be similar


Further, howitzer performance for given calibre should be more similar than tank guns because it is dependent on explosive power not velocity for effect.

FYI:

Soviet 155mm OF-40 Frag 43kg, with 6kg filling


German 155mm I GR 33 HE 38kg with 8kg filling


Which if anything means the Brummbar should have better AOE


Note also that people think the SU-76 is a POS, it could have the same gun performance then it would be more expensive and people might actually use them.

Dude, you have literally played 54 games all as soviet all 4v4................ How in the name of god can you possibly have an opinion on balance!??? I mean no offence man but you are TOTALLY new to COH2. Please stop making very silly statements such as the above quote, you quite simply have no idea what you are talking about........

PS using an ISU as a counter to a JT is so so so so so so so so so so wrong.......

The one thing I have learnt from seeing people talk about player cards is that someone will always find a reason to use it against you


So I pay them no mind and I look at what people say and how they say it.


Thus far I have observed Ninja to be coherent and polite.


I'm not going to argue though that he wouldn't benefit from trying Ost for a bit

However I started this game coming off the campaign and I played Sovs exclusively while I was learning so I understand where he is coming from.



But no, I wouldn't recommend fighting a JT with an ISU either

Change ISU so it's like Sturmtiger. There you go. Fixed.

or change both isu and JT to be a 50range units, takes deployment to get 80 range.

i really like the idea of shell-shocked infantry.

Lel.
I dont get any wipes if my grens aren't cluttered. I dont see wipes when squads arent cluttered while casting. Therefore, I can conclude that it is a problem and it contributes to wiping potential, whether you like it or not or whether you think it makes "no sense".
Its not only the AOE, its both, and that doesnt only count for the Isu.
When your units clutter because they pass a narrow street and they hit a mine the squad gets wiped.
Does that mean the AOE is too big? No, the clutter and AOE was responsible for the wipe.
ISU has of course more AOE and will only wipe if the units clutter, and yes German units tend to clutter, specially when upgraded with LMG, laying on the ground.
AOE and cluttering will always go hand in hand. But hey, thats my opinion.

OK you dont get any squad wipes but how many of us get it pretty often? So dont coment on it pls.

I'd like to know too the spread of ISU's shots, because it seems to me than its accuracy is just terrible.
And plenty of shots just hit the terrain stupidly.

I think is a bad design to shoot six times to an enemy squad, just to miss five shots and achieve a squad wipe with the sixth.
I'd like a little more consistency in accuracy in order to reduce its AoE. Less squad kills, but also less missing shots.

Dude, you have literally played 54 games all as soviet all 4v4................ How in the name of god can you possibly have an opinion on balance!??? I mean no offence man but you are TOTALLY new to COH2. Please stop making very silly statements such as the above quote, you quite simply have no idea what you are talking about........

PS using an ISU as a counter to a JT is so so so so so so so so so so wrong.......

I never even said anything about balance, except nerfing ISU, which people agree to doing....

I also suggested moving commander-specific units into core units maybe you can say that is "balancing".

My comments come from observations in team games so obviously it may conflict with others who play other modes. However i have found that many of my sentiments match other player's thoughts about the game. I don't think my thoughts on balance are wildly different than others, because i have come to the same conclusion on certain issues.

Anyways, on the comment about using ISU to counter KT and JgdT, i apologize for not clarifying my thoughts. Obviously, a 1v1 situation involving ISU and an Axis superheavy is going to spell doom for the Soviet player. In the late game though, both players will have the superheavy and support units+infantry. ISU does a lot of damage, so it allows a player to have a fighting chance against these Axis heavies (obviously with support units etc). Because of its significant damage, it is sort of a "soft" counter to Axis heavies.

When you nerf the ISU (depending on how drastic the nerf will be), it pigeons players into using the IS2 commanders to counter Axis heavies. People already complain about worthless commanders, so these changes may lead to more commanders being neglected.

Plus, nerfing a unit without looking at the relationship between that unit and its native faction and opposing factions can lead to serious consequences. Look at Soviet nondoc roster in terms of AT and tanks.

1. At Gun
2. T34/76
3. Su76
4. SU85

AT Gun is fine but all those other units are really midgame units. You really cant defeat Axis late game armor (unless they make big mistakes and im not talking about a frontal assault either . don't forget, Axis have better AT guns and AT infantry too). So nerfing the ISU does not really matter to me but please look at the Soviet core roster; please give it a weapon that can do some decent damage against heavies. Anything like a SU100 or moving the T34/85 into an upgrade would be great change. I don't want anything OP or dominating, it can be a pure late game change. I hope you understand where i am coming from

just played a 3v3 Sovietx2 + USF v 3 OKW

The other teams clumped and spammed, so it was being handled well - walking stuka barrages, ect...

then they got an ISU and just parked it in front of a capture point and no one could get near it. a couple maxims and a eng squad and you'll never get close, game over

they proceeded to get 2 more ISUs and just totally stopped all gameplay, just parked and 1-shot full vet squads, even the king tiger is useless.

I guess you could force yourself to the Jagdtiger doctrine, but thats pretty fucking ass.

I guess you could force yourself to the Jagdtiger doctrine, but thats pretty fucking ass.

Well, think that they got forced to the ISU doctrine too.

Is not ISU's fault. Superheavy tanks are retarded and force players to play with commanders that have them.

just played a 3v3 Sovietx2 + USF v 3 OKW

The other teams clumped and spammed, so it was being handled well - walking stuka barrages, ect...

then they got an ISU and just parked it in front of a capture point and no one could get near it. a couple maxims and a eng squad and you'll never get close, game over

they proceeded to get 2 more ISUs and just totally stopped all gameplay, just parked and 1-shot full vet squads, even the king tiger is useless.

I guess you could force yourself to the Jagdtiger doctrine, but thats pretty fucking ass.

You're playing clusterfuck game mode, you're getting clusterfuck units.

3 OKW and no one went JT? Sounds like a terrible idea.