How you can make a "support weapon" to serve as a support

The Problem:
Spamming Maxims is reliable on it's own.

Suggestion:
Lower its sight range a bit so it would need another squad to work as spotter.

Pros:

• Maximspam will be more... "flankable" and less reliable on it's own (just like snipers or AT vehicles like Jagdpz.IV)
  
• Actual performance (DPS, suppression, durability) of Maxim wouldn't be lowered
  

Cons:

• Maybe this idea isn't that good because infantry can still spot itself with autofire even while out of sight of Maxim
  
• If applied to all MGs (not only to Maxim), then it would be able to Oorah+Molotov your MG42 in frontal attack with single Conscript squad
  

I will add more pros/cons to this post if you find them.

/discuss

And MG42 have never stopped conscript squad frontally attacking with oorah and molotov ever again.

Unless you believe it should only apply to maxim, in which case:
Show Spoiler

Sight range on weapon teams is already smaller than sight range of infantry. I don't think there is a need to decrease it even further.

As according to Relic we can expect some changes to Soviet weapon teams in the near future I'd hold the horses and wait.
Besides all the support weapons are pretty balanced with the exception of Maxim over performing slightly.

And MG42 have never stopped conscript squad frontally attacking with oorah and molotov ever again.

Unless you believe it should only apply to maxim, in which case:
[...]

Yeah, I've meant only Maxim, because other support weapons are not THAT spammable.
So... could you, please, elaborate?

Yeah, I've meant only Maxim, because other support weapons are not THAT spammable.
So... could you, please, elaborate?

2 words: double standards.

The very essence of bad balance.

2 words: double standards.

The very essence of bad balance.

The whole CoH balance is about double standards. This is not chess.

Just to be clear:
1) you okay with maximspam being reliable strategy for early game as Soviets and don't see a problem here?
or
2) you just not agree with solution to the problem that I suggested?
or
3) you think that maximspam is counterable by Axis (in our case OKW) without investing considerable amount of resources so it wouldn't harm your late game to unwinnable condition and OKW players just need to L2P?

The whole CoH balance is about double standards. This is not chess.

No, not really, most balance discussions are about double standards. Balance is not.

Just to be clear:
1) you okay with maximspam being reliable strategy for early game as Soviets and don't see a problem here?
or

I'm not, but it happens not because maxims are too effective, but because conscipts and penals are ineffective, which directly translates into soviets not having any non doctrinal main line infantry after early game.

2) you just not agree with solution to the problem that I suggested?
or

Obviously I disagree, its a terrible solution.

3) you think that maximspam is counterable by Axis (in our case OKW) without investing considerable amount of resources so it wouldn't harm your late game to unwinnable condition and OKW players just need to L2P?

Yes.
You want to counter 1000mp worth of units, invest 1000mp worth of units yourself, just make sure you're not spamming papers against scissors.

Its annoying to play against, but so is annoying to play against Tiger spam, stuka, any OKW infantry above volks, LMG gren spam and so on.

Point is-annoying to play against and difficult to counter doesn't translate to overpowered and impossible to counter.

And if you want to see less maxims, allow conscripts and penals to fight other infantry cost effectively after 8th minute of the game without having to go for doctrine that focuses on conscripts as playing anything else but maxims or guards+snipers is effectively a conceding against OKW.

As according to Relic we can expect some changes to Soviet weapon teams in the near future I'd hold the horses and wait.

Yeah, I've heard they want to lower Maxim squad size to 4 man, and this is exactly what I would like to avoid and find another solution. At least not while Ost mortar have such accuracy and rate of fire.

There's not point in arguing with Kaitof. His job is to defend Soviets no matter what. So if he ever does actually play this game instead of living on the forums, he can continue playing the cheesiest and easiest faction

All support teams need reduced sight then, that would only be logical. If you wanted both them mg42 and maxim to have low sight, then fine because Ostheer would always need combined arms anyway, it's not that detrimental.

IMO since the mg42 was a more modern MG with a tripod, it should have +5 range compared to the WWI wheely thing (the maxim).

I kinda agree with Katitof here. At the moment there's no worthwhile non doctrinal infantry that the soviets can use in the mid-late which means that soviets go with the next best thing which is either the maxim/doctrinal.

If cons/penals do get buffed to the point that they are actually worth building then I do think then and there that the maxim should get nerfed in a certain way.

There's not point in arguing with Kaitof. His job is to defend Soviets no matter what. So if he ever does actually play this game instead of living on the forums, he can continue playing the cheesiest and easiest faction

Why not? Actually his thoughts are valid on this subject and he pointed out that you wouldn't be able to block area from infantry with a lonely MG42 anymore. So he's not defending only Soviets. So, please, keep discussion polite.

And maybe Soviets are the cheesiest, but not even close to be easiest faction IMO.

Maxims just need to have poor suppression at long range.

They should murderface anything close range, and quickly suppress, pin, and then kill anything at medium range.

But at long range they should do very little suppression. Fighting a maxim at long range (in cover) should be like fighting an infantry squad with a captured lmg42. Squads will lose members, but they will be able to return fire effectively and be able to retreat when needed.

Because the maxim can rotate and pack/set up so well, it's well designed to deal with an enemy poking around the perimeter trying to flank outside the maxim's cone of fire. Right now the maxim doesn't even have to utilize its superior rotation because it locks down squads at max range so well to begin with.

The maxim should punish any charging unit, which puts them in a wonderful defensive role. As long as there is a threshold of range where Axis forces can maneuver without fear of instant suppression and pinning at long range, the maxim will be relegated to a supportive role.

It would still be retain much of its function on the front lines, but it would require more than just more maxims to maintain a good field presence.

Maxims just need to have poor suppression at long range.

The maxim should punish any charging unit, which puts them in a wonderful defensive role. As long as there is a threshold of range where Axis forces can maneuver without fear of instant suppression and pinning at long range, the maxim will be relegated to a supportive role.

And thus soviets were forced into snipers every single game to do anything to the fallschirm/ober/lmg42gren blobs. As long as the current huge disparity in long range infantry damage exists, reducing maxim long range performance is very much a death sentence to it and the little build variety we have right now.

I will agree to that. The Soviets are virtually crippled in effective unit choice in almost every respect.

I can sympathize with you there.

I really do wish penal battalions were still effective at range. I also wish guards were a standard infantry, their DP mg had a suppression ability (like vCoH BARs), and that they lacked PTRS and button until one of the commanders that now unlocks guards is chosen.

Which I think is the principal problem with balance discussions. No one knows where we should or could even begin, let alone agree on it.

Maxims just need to have poor suppression at long range.

Maxim long range suppression is fine. It makes up for its narrow firing cone.

The only thing it could be debated is its survivality with its 6-men crew. Ostheer have rifle nades and mortar fast barrage to balance that, but OKW has nothing against it, specially in the early game.
HMG balance is not as simple as nerfing only Maxim.

Btw, lone HMGs are currently too easy to flank. Decreasing their sight range will only encourage more HMG spamming, because you will need more of them protecting each other.

What if the sight range on all MGs was reduced (by say, 50%) when they were set up, except in their cone of fire? Similar to the ability on the American AT gun, but always active when they are set up to fire. This would force MGs to play a more supportive role by making it more painful to be approached from behind with a good flank. Maxim retreat would probably need to be fixed for this to work well.