My thoughts & ideas on Conscripts

I'm pretty sure I got banned for making fun of katitof

How's that fit in to any of this? I didn't get personal until woof the "senior strategist" who has never played a single game as OKW was commenting on Volksgrenadiers. I'm sorry you have such thin skin.

"Conscripts don't need a buff" is a matter of fact? As in "the sky is blue" kind of fact or "Cannonade's own little world" kind of fact?

volks are the toughest infantry unit? first time ive heard that one. you said it yourself, volks arent offensive powerhouses in late game, but they fill a vital role. i would say cons do the same thanks to their abilities. merge, oorah, molotovs and AT nades are all still useful in the late game. without an lmg, grens scale just as well (or bad, if you want to look at it that way) as cons. would you say a gren without an lmg is completely worthless late game?

Volks are very tough with vet. As a 5 man Axis squad with up to 50% received accuracy modifiers at vet 5, they can take one hell of a beating, especially since they vet very fast with shrecks. I think the only tougher Axis infantry are vetted Obers and Panzerfusiliers, anyone feel free to correct me with the power of maths.

Overall toughest infantry are probably vet 3 Shock troops, however.

As for cons vs Volks scaling, as I play them the award goes to Volks, no contest. Even at vet 3 consctipts die fast to any good AI units, don't have the dps to properly support your other units, and unless they can capture a weapon or get PPShs are generally pretty deadweight. AT nades are nice, but any competent Axis player won't let you get close to use them most of the time, Ooorah or not, and if the vehicle is properly supported they usually have to retreat after taking fire on approach. Merge is a niche ability that's a lot of hassle for not too much gain unless you use Guards (not to mention it means you have your conscripts constantly retreating to reinforce back, not doing anything actually useful like capping).

Volks, on the other hand, gain the durability to stand up to most allied infantry for a time until renforcments arrives, or beat them with a lucky grenade. They need to bail if Shocks or 1919 rifles arrive, but apart from that they're hard to scare off and their received accuracy means they can get in position to fire their shrecks more often than Cons can use their AT nades.

Conscripts have utility, sure, not denying that. But their utility is not enough to compensate for their lack of proper scaling.

Cons are fine.

Penals are the missing link.

If cons are fine I wouldn't be seeing Maxim / sniper spam every single time I face a soviet.

Seriously, people do this shit to avoid conscripts as a unit because it is absolutely dreadful to field. 6 conscripts can work? Sure, maybe once, maybe twice... but it certainly doesn't have a consistent win rate or else I'd be seeing it all the time.

End of the day, conscripts are inconsistent with their performance.

Arclyte: Love how you ignore my post on Penals in relation to Cons here and call my contribution "useless".

Your a real classy guy. Especially right after being banned.

Jin6666: You are seeing them because they overperform. Cons dont underperform. Penals however certainly do underperform.

To those who want scaling on Cons, fine, lets move Oorah/Merge to T3/T4. There you go.
Have fun with your "newfound" scaling then.

Yea, penals and cons can be updated to synergize (and by synergize, I mean doing more than merging into penals). That's useful.

Shitting up my thread with buttmad one-liners is not. Keep bringing up some stupid forum ban though, that really cuts me deep.

This thread is here because I don't want to spam weapon teams into elite infantry every game. I want to make use of conscripts.

You are seeing them because they overperform. Cons dont underperform. Penals however certainly do underperform.

To those who want scaling on Cons, fine, lets move Oorah/Merge to T3/T4. There you go.
Have fun with your "newfound" scaling then.

I would love you to play against any of top 50 OKW players using cons and merge him to death until T3/T4, where both SU-85 and T34/76s excel against pumas and shrecks as we all know.

I'd pay a dollar to see that.

Play against OKW without using maxims or snipers and without spamming guards, rely on conscripts as you believe is possible and share with us your results.

Unless you believe they are only there to merge, then replace them with halftruck that reinforces.

Of course they perform "fine" for you, after all you need zero effort to counter them.

Waaah Im mad cos I dont get what I want! Who cares about balance/design! Mewantsit!
Waaah Im gonna attack and insult everyone who disagrees with me! Even forum staff and s.strategist!
Waah my thread can only have people in it who gimme what I want!

Though its not strictly ontopic, I just wanted to point out there is abit of danger in (hopefully) increasing Penals mid-long efficacy.

At cost, if for example Penals cameout with roughly G43 equivalent SVTs (that I hope and suggest), they sort of should be better than LMG Grens, when further upgraded with DPs. But Im ok with risking that for starters, it can be tuned as needed thereafter.

First of all, because in a long range engagement, Grens still have the RNade advantage, whereas I see it that Penals would keep the Satchel (which is operable only much closer in) and the lack of a direct armor disabler. Otherwise I would be tempted to suggest a MP increase to 400. But seeing as they lack an ATNade, and Satchel is out of their optimum, I think the 360 cost is reciprocated.

Though Penals, perhaps, have been designed as a "suicide unit", its not consistent with the rest of Sov infantry optimum ranges. Cons and Shocks already have a close optimum. Guards try to fill the longer range gap, but are natively saddled with 2xPTRS. Sov needs Penals to work like a G43 Gren in terms of mid-long and also somewhat in regards to moving accuracy to fill the gap other Sov infantry simply cant.

Second, as Ive said before, I propose a full spectrum upgrade option to allow Penals to diversify into the "gap" roles left outside of Cons, around Doctrinal Guard/Shock, and to bolster the vanilla unit variety for non-callin Commanders.

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1) Change Penals to have SVTs which roughly equal G43s, but accounting for normal infantry small arms equations in regards to the size of opposing units (which now also are mostly unarmored).

2) Implement a variety of upgrades from which to choose ONE, at fair Muni costs (especially so as to not step on Guards as another natively diverse and upgradeable option):
-2x DPs: (which should tbh be improved for both Guards and for purposes of this Penal proposal) so that Penals with DPs perform slightly better overall than LMG Grens at all respective ranges. An increase in DP setup time might be necessary to offset this. This so that Penals can upgrade to face LMG units for raw dps, especially in scaling towards lategame. Button presents a problem here. If Penals have Button too, it marginalises Guards. Personally, I would move Button to PTRS for Guard and Penals.

-2xPTRS: Primarily to support non-Guard Commanders as a light AT option. As above, I suggest moving Button to PTRS, because frankly the dual role of DPs as both a Buttoner and an infantry weapon is a weird split, that I think is limiting the DPs infantry firepower element, AND limiting PTRS AT function as dedicated weapons for those specific purposes.

-1xFlamer + Full PPHSs: Primarily to support non-Shock Commanders. I dunno how used this would be, as it completely reverses the otherwise SVT/G43 style optimum, but I think it would find uses often enough to fill the gap if you need more close assault potential, especially in conjunction with Satchel. Depending on Muni cost and how this variant pans out, a small armor upgrade might also be conducive in this option.

Point being to change Penals into a very diversifiable core unit that can, at cost, handle long range combat in a way Cons cannot, fill the gap in all directions for Shock/Guard/Non-callin Commanders (and why not Partisan ones too), and provide a vanilla backbone to the ubiquitous Cons, that is good at whichever specific function it is upgraded to (though not as good as the true dedicated Callins).

Know what I mean?

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I know some will respond with historical accuracy comments, and suggestions that they be changed to Strelky, and such. Fsct of the matter though, is Penals where often given the most dangerous tasks, and usually equipped appropriately to perform them.

Their "expendable" nature was not rooted in wanting to just kill them off, but in the fact they could be directly ordered and forced to take the missions nobody else would. The kinds of missions that the rate of attrition would have been unnacceptable to order especially conscripts to die for. Its an ambiguous line, and Penal legions are an enormous area of ethical and military controversy, but pragmatically they simply where more expendable than others, as punishment for their perceived crimes. Nonetheless, especially in the cold mathematics of war, it is pointless to send men to die on an impossible mission. Even Penal men (and especially these men) are too valuable to waste with no useful outcome. So when they where given these dangerous missions, they where supported with equipment and backup, as much as possible, so that they could atleast have a chance of success, despite rates of attrition unconscionable for other units.

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Important note: Another reason why Penals really stand out as the missing link in Sov infantry structure, is how well Cons synch with them. Especially thanks to one extremely crucial and almost as underused ability as Penals are, which is Merge.

A Con build can indefinately continue to Merge into and support Penals, at very equitable cost, for much greater combat efficiency, than Cons themselves carry. As interesting as Merge is with Support Teams and Shocks/Guards, it can really stand to shine in terms of constantly reinforcing and keeping Penal units (with the options and diverse effectiveness Ive tried to suggest above) as a unit that really never leaves the field. Hell, they even have Oorah to help them relocate between fronts!

Its a synergy made in gaming heaven, and such a sorely missing element in Sov play, specifically because right now, Penals just arent worth it, so this synergy rarely if ever can be capitalised on. And again, another crucial reason why Penals really are the missing link. Everything else is there just waiting to support for Penals to be improved/changed to take the role that belongs to them.

TLDR: Penals, if changed as I propose, stand to synergise with Cons (due to Cons ATNade and Merge especially) in such a way that it takes the pressure off of all Commanders and allows for more baseline diversity. This unit really is the one that can stand to be the binding glue between Cons/Guards/Shocks and even Partisans that works togetger with them, filling the gaps the others cannot, whilst also synergising with them in a way that together they are greater than their parts.

Katitof: I dunno wth you are talking about, but it seems to be full of imaginary things that I never said or claimed. So yeah, means nothing to me.

I would love you to play against any of top 50 OKW players using cons and merge him to death until T3/T4, where both SU-85 and T34/76s excel against pumas and shrecks as we all know.

I'd pay a dollar to see that.

Play against OKW without using maxims or snipers and without spamming guards, rely on conscripts as you believe is possible and share with us your results.

Unless you believe they are only there to merge, then replace them with halftruck that reinforces.

Of course they perform "fine" for you, after all you need zero effort to counter them.

top 100
http://www.coh2.org/replay/22537/infantry-everywhere

top 25
http://www.coh2.org/replay/22769/all-it-takes-is-just-one-sneaky-engineer...

Yea, penals and cons can be updated to synergize (and by synergize, I mean doing more than merging into penals). That's useful.

This thread is here because I don't want to spam weapon teams into elite infantry every game. I want to make use of conscripts.

If conscripts get improvements, then soviet players won't need to rely on their Doc inf + tank doctrines, and we can finally see some diversity.

Yeah, lets stick some PTRS, some SVTs and a few DPs on Cons.
And some armor, cos thats badass, and Cons are badass.

This is like totally good for their scaling, which is like really important, man (or something).

It would be good for diversity, cos with badass Cons, you would, like, totally still want to build lots of other infantry too, to sort of cool down their badassery so it doesnt like hurt the game with its baseline awesomeness (and axisbois would cry, we dont want that).

That way we can have a 6man sprinting and merging unit thats cheap to reinforce running around with lots of guns and some armor, cos Cons are supposed to be baseline badassery that scales in all directions.

Infact they are so badass, lets get rid of the ISU and instead have a big fat Conscript carrying a huge gun being super badass all over thr filthy Fascists.

Calm your tits gentlemen

If conscripts get improvements, then soviet players won't need to rely on their Doc inf + tank doctrines, and we can finally see some diversity.

if you want to see some diversity just watch those replays i linked. redxwings uses none of the so called required units for soviets. no maxim/sniper/shocks/guards/t34/85/is2/isu.

If conscripts get improvements, then soviet players won't need to rely on their Doc inf + tank doctrines, and we can finally see some diversity.

Gonna barge in like a boss and suggest what someone posted earlier (who?)dps boost for conscripts at vet3.

Gonna barge in like a boss and suggest what someone posted earlier (who?)dps boost for conscripts at vet3.

Then vanilla v3 Cons would utterly destroy vanilla v3 Grens.

Not to mention other infantry, especially Support Teams.

Yeah, lets stick some PTRS, some SVTs and a few DPs on Cons.
And some armor, cos thats badass, and Cons are badass.

This is like totally good for their scaling, which is like really important, man (or something).

It would be good for diversity, cos with badass Cons, you would, like, totally still want to build lots of other infantry too, to sort of cool down their badassery so it doesnt like hurt the game with its baseline awesomeness (and axisbois would cry, we dont want that).

That way we can have a 6man sprinting and merging unit thats cheap to reinforce running around with lots of guns and some armor, cos Cons are supposed to be baseline badassery that scales in all directions.

Infact they are so badass, lets get rid of the ISU and instead have a big fat Conscript carrying a huge gun being super badass all over thr filthy Fascists.

And you accuse others of trolling.

@ wooof; thanks for those links, I'm going to watch those when I get home.

The_Courier: Just some satire for purposes of bringing a little perspective to this discussion.

Then vanilla v3 Cons would utterly destroy vanilla v3 Grens.

Not to mention other infantry, especially Support Teams.

Hmm, that would make sense. So accuracy buff would be the way to go? They are veteran troops after all.

vanilla v3 Grens.

Hmm, that would make sense. So accuracy buff would be the way to go? They are veteran troops after all.

They already get +40% accuracy at v2.

(Same as Grens)

Arclyte seems to have difficulty grasping how it can be that a unit upgraded at Muni cost could have better DPS than one that isnt. To him, its confusing like a unicorn. He cant tell if its a horse with a boner on its forehead, or a 4legged narwhal.