The Problem of Axis in Teamgames

or you've been unlucky enough never to be "auto-matched" inside a good coordinated Allied team.

I'll never forget one game against some Allied pros, it was a 4 vs 4, and I suspect we were playin' against only 3 guys while the fourth just capped behind them with one squad and plotting something.
They were that good that we didn't even realise we were playin' vs 3 players only. They mostly focused on both fuels, denying it for the 60% of the game, but we held tight n' fought and "thought" we were ok. The game went on so far I managed to unlock the Tiger but still had no fuel for it but I thought to myself, soon we're goin' places lol, when other team mate deployed couple of PZIV's AND all of the sudden - blob of 10 or so tanks drove all over the map right into our base destroying eveything in it's path. I was like WTF.. I hardly managed to build one tank, my team mates only few mediums, and we weren't that much worse during the game, and all of the sudden they have 10+ co-ordinated tanks ready for ultimate push. It was literally mind blowing.. They fourth guy was obviously just making (russian) Shermans untill had had like 6-7 of them. And they other one called in the T34/85's and that was it.

games like that are pretty much broken. you do fairly well even better by the early-mid game then out of nowhere they have like 5+ sherman/t34s/85s etc. even in 2v2 as well.

games like that are pretty much broken. you do fairly well even better by the early-mid game then out of nowhere they have like 5+ sherman/t34s/85s etc. even in 2v2 as well.

but those teams are well-coordinated. in random team games i find that the opposite occurs. Probably both teams are fairly disorganized and lack communication. But Axis saving grave in these larger modes is their powerful lategame. Just hold out for a little bit then you can start reclaiming lost VPs and points

Surely we don't play the same game...

but, i have played you in 4v4 and its not the game balance that is making you lose as allies. next time we play i will save the replay and will show you where your team went wrong. but, in 4v4 it has allot to do with commanders, esp sovs.


let this be a learning point for you soviet "players." SOME OF US GERMAN PLAYERS HAVE BEEN PLAYING 4v4 COH SINCE COH CAME OUT. Not just skirmish mode for 7 years, actual online play. it may not just be a balance issue that you are losing.

smoke nades requires teching or shocks to counter mg42, like all mg, they shine when used at max range, firing from the fog makes mg42 very powerful. given the lack of sprint, it takes a while for rifles/shocks to get close on the mg42 even if they pop smoke. in the mean time, focus on the squads attempting to rush mg42s.

i'd be glad to make that trade with you. paks dont just have a slightly faster rof, it has a significantly higher rof that makes it does about 45% more dps than a zis. allied paper thin armour makes no difference when heavy tanks come into play. a zis will struggle against a tiger before the tiger gets behind it or slugs it out, but a pak have a pretty good chance of destroying an is2 due to its much higer firing rate.

the only reason why you prefer the mg34 is the insta pin which the mg42 cannot do, that arc trumps over maxim's arc anyday.

lastly, rifles. in the vacuum, grens < rifles. but ostheer t1 >>>>>>>>>>>>> USF t1. usf has only got rifles to count on, but ostheer has got mg42 to pin rifles down. you need to take advantage of this fact, before you go into unit stat differences. 3grens + 1 mg42 > 4 rifles, all unupgraded, even when bars are thrown into the picture, grens have lmg42 and it does not screw with the equation. bars need tech, while lmg42 are free with bp1 that unlocks even more units.

and volks, they are cheaper and equally durable. its a pretty even fight with rifles as long as sturmpios are there to keep rifles from closing in. mg34 in t1 @ 210mp is also a steal, okw has no issue against infantry at all.

In all honesty, who doesn't upgrade to grenades. I'm serious, that's screaming suicide. Yes, those squads don't have sprint but they can still easily flank MG42s. They're other counters to it which I listed before besides running up like an idiot.

Penetration of PAK: 210.0/200.0/190.0

Penetration of Zis: 200.0/190.0/180.0

Hardly a difference penetration wise, plus the significantly faster ROF occurs when it's at vet. Like I said before, a vetted pak is by far superior than a vetted zis. Also Paks still have a hard time with IS2s, IS2 frontal armor is 375. Yes few shots will manage to penetrate but by then my IS2 will obliterate the support weapon or my shocks will.

Also you mean Germans T1>USF T0. It's always been like that even with the soviets. Plus that scenario where 3 Grens + MG fighting 4 riflemen. The Germans won't win that every time. Maybe if I throw all 4 of my riflemen like an idiot then maybe he could win. But 1 smoke nade would make that MG useless. Even then, that's if someone plays like an idiot. If 2 riflemen flank the MG (toss a nade) and the other riflemen move up once the MG is getting attacked or taken out, the 4 riflemen win the engagement. In these scenarios, you're forgetting a huge factor, which is skill.

Volks-Grenaiders, yes they are a damage sponge until they get veterancy, but they do so little damage...

Volks 0 Range: 3.43

10 Range: 2.47

20 Range: 1.9

Compare that to the riflemen that I posted before. This is why many players don't run up with Riflemen against volks, because they know they will win the engagement regardless. If the sturmpio decides to run up to my riflemen, goodbye sturmpio, because sturms lose a lot of dps on the move and are more vulnerable cover wise.

The MG34 is doctrinal and is by far the best Machine Gun in the game. It's the only reliable suppressing weapon that the okw has besides kubel. If you play or even watch 2 vs 2 games or higher, you will see that okw have a hard time early game against allies. It's mainly because riflemen/sovs combo. Unless they get very lucky or they are playing against bad players.

Plus Allies just have dirty tactics to dominate early game. FHQ, Good Support Weapon Spam, my beautiful Rifle Company, and Snipers.

........ my beautiful Rifle Company.....

Made me smile. Thanks for keeping it clean

but, i have played you in 4v4 and its not the game balance that is making you lose as allies. next time we play i will save the replay and will show you where your team went wrong. but, in 4v4 it has allot to do with commanders, esp sovs.


let this be a learning point for you soviet "players." SOME OF US GERMAN PLAYERS HAVE BEEN PLAYING 4v4 COH SINCE COH CAME OUT. Not just skirmish mode for 7 years, actual online play. it may not just be a balance issue that you are losing.

Soviets are ok for 4vs4 that the American faction that is in need of luv especially in latest game phase.

I think USA and USSR need to be reorganized. Kinda lame that Soviet is so commander dependent to deal with Axis lategame. Only doctrines with heavy tanks get picked

Alright let me lay down the law. Axis can be good early as well as late game, so can allies, it all depends on what you do. Do you want to save up for late game tanks? Then you're gonna have a rough early game. Do you want to save up for early game tanks? Then you're gonna have a good early-mid game.(This includes the flak-ht). Same goes with infantry. Get tons of volks early game while partner goes support like dbl light-howi and you're gonna have a swell time on one side of the map(after taking out your opponents on one side simply send something to cap the rest of the map). Or go usual couple volks while saving mp for other stuff like falls/jaeger/etc...

In all honesty, who doesn't upgrade to grenades. I'm serious, that's screaming suicide. Yes, those squads don't have sprint but they can still easily flank MG42s. They're other counters to it which I listed before besides running up like an idiot.

Penetration of PAK: 210.0/200.0/190.0

Penetration of Zis: 200.0/190.0/180.0

Hardly a difference penetration wise, plus the significantly faster ROF occurs when it's at vet. Like I said before, a vetted pak is by far superior than a vetted zis. Also Paks still have a hard time with IS2s, IS2 frontal armor is 375. Yes few shots will manage to penetrate but by then my IS2 will obliterate the support weapon or my shocks will.

Also you mean Germans T1>USF T0. It's always been like that even with the soviets. Plus that scenario where 3 Grens + MG fighting 4 riflemen. The Germans won't win that every time. Maybe if I throw all 4 of my riflemen like an idiot then maybe he could win. But 1 smoke nade would make that MG useless. Even then, that's if someone plays like an idiot. If 2 riflemen flank the MG (toss a nade) and the other riflemen move up once the MG is getting attacked or taken out, the 4 riflemen win the engagement. In these scenarios, you're forgetting a huge factor, which is skill.

Volks-Grenaiders, yes they are a damage sponge until they get veterancy, but they do so little damage...

Volks 0 Range: 3.43

10 Range: 2.47

20 Range: 1.9

Compare that to the riflemen that I posted before. This is why many players don't run up with Riflemen against volks, because they know they will win the engagement regardless. If the sturmpio decides to run up to my riflemen, goodbye sturmpio, because sturms lose a lot of dps on the move and are more vulnerable cover wise.

The MG34 is doctrinal and is by far the best Machine Gun in the game. It's the only reliable suppressing weapon that the okw has besides kubel. If you play or even watch 2 vs 2 games or higher, you will see that okw have a hard time early game against allies. It's mainly because riflemen/sovs combo. Unless they get very lucky or they are playing against bad players.

Plus Allies just have dirty tactics to dominate early game. FHQ, Good Support Weapon Spam, my beautiful Rifle Company, and Snipers.

the pak vs zis rof difference even unvetted, is significant. still ill take a pak any day over a zis, im sure most people can agree with me.

use grens to get sight on rifles and mg42 deploy at max range, smoke wont save them when they are already caught by the mg42 except to cover themselves from getting shot up further. use this chance to relocate mg42 and grens focus down on squads trying to flank, standard vcoh wehr play.

i play loads of 2v2 as allies and quite enough as axis to have experience on them. i know what you mean, but sadly, as long as they dont buff conscripts and fix the initial infantry advantage that okw has (okw can have volks and sturmpios on the field while soviet have conscripts and engrs), cheap tricks are here to stay.

without m3, kubels are extremely strong and cannot be taken out by cons/maxims. without m3/maxim, soviets will lose all infantry fights. its a complete uphill battle without m3. maxim advantage can be negated based on maps, garrisoning buildings usually works well.

Alright let me lay down the law. Axis can be good early as well as late game, so can allies, it all depends on what you do. Do you want to save up for late game tanks? Then you're gonna have a rough early game. Do you want to save up for early game tanks? Then you're gonna have a good early-mid game.(This includes the flak-ht). Same goes with infantry. Get tons of volks early game while partner goes support like dbl light-howi and you're gonna have a swell time on one side of the map(after taking out your opponents on one side simply send something to cap the rest of the map). Or go usual couple volks while saving mp for other stuff like falls/jaeger/etc...

Except both soviets and Americans need to choose a doctrine with late game units, while Germans can choose a early game doctrine and still have access to late game units.

Alright let me lay down the law. Axis can be good early as well as late game, so can allies, it all depends on what you do. Do you want to save up for late game tanks? Then you're gonna have a rough early game. Do you want to save up for early game tanks? Then you're gonna have a good early-mid game.(This includes the flak-ht). Same goes with infantry. Get tons of volks early game while partner goes support like dbl light-howi and you're gonna have a swell time on one side of the map(after taking out your opponents on one side simply send something to cap the rest of the map). Or go usual couple volks while saving mp for other stuff like falls/jaeger/etc...

Well said, my boy.

the pak vs zis rof difference even unvetted, is significant. still ill take a pak any day over a zis, im sure most people can agree with me.

use grens to get sight on rifles and mg42 deploy at max range, smoke wont save them when they are already caught by the mg42 except to cover themselves from getting shot up further. use this chance to relocate mg42 and grens focus down on squads trying to flank, standard vcoh wehr play.

i play loads of 2v2 as allies and quite enough as axis to have experience on them. i know what you mean, but sadly, as long as they dont buff conscripts and fix the initial infantry advantage that okw has (okw can have volks and sturmpios on the field while soviet have conscripts and engrs), cheap tricks are here to stay.

without m3, kubels are extremely strong and cannot be taken out by cons/maxims. without m3/maxim, soviets will lose all infantry fights. its a complete uphill battle without m3. maxim advantage can be negated based on maps, garrisoning buildings usually works well.

this man is top 10 2v2!!! he speaks the truth!!!!

Except both soviets and Americans need to choose a doctrine with late game units, while Germans can choose a early game doctrine and still have access to late game units.

You mean just soviets.

The issue is with a lot of Soviet things not working as well as they should/could. Let me elaborate.

Conscripts are...okay, but with PPSh-41s being re-skinned spears and the Molotov being ineffective against blobs (short range and the need for the enemy to stand in the damn thing to really feel the hurt) means that rifles-only is the way to go. The problem is, Cons with rifles only, even with vet, are meh (compared to the rest of the rifles and infantry in-game).

Penals aren't much better; yes, they can crap out some superior DPS at times (in numbers, yes, they are generally better, but in game I usually see little difference) but lack any utility whatsoever, have no viable AT options, and must close the distance with the enemy to be effective.

The Maxim's lack of area-suppression means that A-move blobs of LMG'd grenadiers can simply riflenade you to death or DPS the gunners one at a time. You can build more Maxims and even some Quads if you like, but that won't pin the enemy blob before his Grens/PGs wreck you. Hell, even Volks are scary; I was facing off against vet 3-4 Volks with maybe 10-12 kills a piece--that's damn scary considering they auto heal, get shrecks, and can throw nades around in addition to being 5 men and having the ability to pick up other weapons.

The 120mm mortar is not, contrary to what the tooltip says, good against static emplacements, or anything really. Yes, precision shots are pretty good, but there's the issue that they are exactly identical to the one used by the 82mm mortar (iirc). Even if I'm wrong in that regard, the 120mm has ridiculous spread; assuming the enemy reacts, re-positions his mortar, and counter-barrages yours, you lose.

The DShK is simply less effective than the maxim. It does not suppress enemy infantry as quickly, it does not damage them as quickly, and it costs more, both in manpower and population.

The ZiS, as has been stated, is not up to the task of dealing with armor in the way the PaK is. Yes, you have the utility of using the barrage, but the barrage is only useful in the face of incompetence.

My tl;dr issue with Soviets in team games is, they can't thin out the Axis blobs without a retarded amount of MGs or artillery (that is overshadowed by the non-doctrinal Stuka in every capacity, sans maximum range). Your infantry, short of snipers, are nowhere near up to the task of wiping out the enemy (Shocks, on very urban maps and used en masse, are very useful, however), be they Cons, Guards, Penals, or Engineers. The T-34/76 is worse than the Panzer IV in every capacity, and with the current patch is *nearly* the same cost.

In a game where infantry blobs are the status quo, the Soviets get the (very) short end of the stick.

the pak vs zis rof difference even unvetted, is significant. still ill take a pak any day over a zis, im sure most people can agree with me.

use grens to get sight on rifles and mg42 deploy at max range, smoke wont save them when they are already caught by the mg42 except to cover themselves from getting shot up further. use this chance to relocate mg42 and grens focus down on squads trying to flank, standard vcoh wehr play.

i play loads of 2v2 as allies and quite enough as axis to have experience on them. i know what you mean, but sadly, as long as they dont buff conscripts and fix the initial infantry advantage that okw has (okw can have volks and sturmpios on the field while soviet have conscripts and engrs), cheap tricks are here to stay.

without m3, kubels are extremely strong and cannot be taken out by cons/maxims. without m3/maxim, soviets will lose all infantry fights. its a complete uphill battle without m3. maxim advantage can be negated based on maps, garrisoning buildings usually works well.

I guess you did refute my point when giving an example about the smokes. Still, that example was a situation in which the US just charges in like a moron. Again, a skilled player would flank the machine gun. (re-positioning a mg42 when flanked is a death sentence)

I think kubels are fine as is except the bug where green cover doesn't affect suppression rate. I don't think they should be able to last all game. But I wish it can disable it's gun for faster speed so I can actually use it like a recon unit sort of like the schwimwaggen.

Maxim spam isn't really that big of an issue for me, my buddy takes care of them since he uses Agrens.

Still, allies have dirty tactics to win early game. That's why I think they can have a superior early game. I use dirty tactics like this guy below.

If we start to talk balance based on 4v4.... the game is doomed.

Dual okw is hell to play and to resist. A more viable formula is OKW + Ostheer.

While for ostheer and okw or for dual okw keeping 40% of the map is vital, for allied balistic weapons do the trick. Katiushas, B4, howitzers (mobile or static). Every faction has all the tools to fight against others properly. No one is disadvantaged, and trying to state ideas like "alied are generally weaker than axis" because(...) are designed to fail.

I guess you did refute my point when giving an example about the smokes. Still, that example was a situation in which the US just charges in like a moron. Again, a skilled player would flank the machine gun. (re-positioning a mg42 when flanked is a death sentence)

I think kubels are fine as is except the bug where green cover doesn't affect suppression rate. I don't think they should be able to last all game. But I wish it can disable it's gun for faster speed so I can actually use it like a recon unit sort of like the schwimwaggen.

Maxim spam isn't really that big of an issue for me, my buddy takes care of them since he uses Agrens.

Still, allies have dirty tactics to win early game. That's why I think they can have a superior early game. I use dirty tactics like this guy below.

wrong, thats a situation when you use grens to spot for rifles, not when someone bumrushes you with 4x rifles blobbed up. usually you can spot flanks well before they come, then burst, once or twice to pin a squad down, thats 1 squad that is already useless, start soft retreating mg back deeper while maintaining sight on flanking rifles, while all this a happening focus fire on flankers. grens have more than enough dps to discourage rifles from running out of cover and straight to the mg42. if rifles are in range to nade before you realize it, problem is with mg42 positioning and not using grens.

early game, ost should not have problems with enough green cover lying around to minimize rng losses. browning lmg is stupidly powerful so i hope it gets nerfed and lets not discuss about that.

well microed kubels are a bitch to destroy with just infantry. only an m3 will get it as long as pathing doesnt fuck it up. same logic applies, engage with volks, use kubels to pin from far.

im just trying to refute the point that okw/ostheer are not as gimped early game as most people think. they have a pretty good fighting chance of beating allied infantry and tactics. whats more important is once they understand that there's a pretty good chance of a fairly even early game, early mid to late game is an uphill battle. when soviets are struggling to deal with volks/grens/mg with guards, conscripts and generally meh infantry, okw/ost can deploy next tier infantry like obers/fallshirm/panzerfusiliers/upgrade grens lmg42 which the soviets have no equivalent nor durable enough to hold them off and are forced to use tanks, snipers and cheese infantry out with hardcounter spams and try to bleed germans before they build up a super efficient critical infantry mass and A+move the entire match and save up for super heavies.

so thank god for cheese strats and units like isu152.

im just trying to refute the point that okw/ostheer are not as gimped early game as most people think.

Well, in my case, it is easier to play as OKW in 1v1 against USF or Sov than the ostheer. But, i often struggle in mid-late game because i tend to do stupid moves and/or decisions later in game.
Why is easier? Double sturm+kubel then volks. I can even go for OKW HT for AI support and still manage against USF AA because OKW AT is cheap and fast to deploy.
Just, kubel is a hell to keep alive because that unit's pathfinding is ridiculously stupid and annoying. But with little luck i can dominate very early game.

so thank god for cheese strats and units like isu152.

Quoted.

Im not even going to comment on what this kind of attitude entails in gameplay and balance discussion.
Everyone can draw their own conclusions for themselves.

Quoted.

Im not even going to comment on what this kind of attitude entails in gameplay and balance discussion.
Everyone can draw their own conclusions for themselves.

im all for balance, but with the current attitude of this okw/ostheer biased forums, fucks i give is pretty much 0. try and discuss obersoldaten and talk about conscripts buff. people here think obers are fucking okay.

i dont see radical changes anytime soon either. you can go ahead and talk about my attitude, doesnt matter much to me.