The old system needs to come back. Getting tired of seeing rifle spam, volks spam, PF spam, fallschirmjager spam, etc etc.
Having units on the field decreases your manpower income by x. In CoH2, the upkeep is a constant applied to your popcap (-1.5mp/min currently, and probably unlikely to change). Generally speaking basic infantry upkeep is cheaper in CoH2 than in CoH1 while the upkeep on all specialist infantry and vehicles is higher.
In CoH1, every single unit had its own upkeep value, many of which made no sense whatsoever. But apparently the fact that the super high upkeep on mainline infantry limited spamming them makes it such a superior system despite all the horribly stupid things it had otherwise (Wehr sniper upkeep half of a rifleman squad, Ostwind upkeep less than a rifle squad etc)
Why are we still keeping that simplified upkeep system?
16 Aug 2014, 12:26 PM
#41
Posts: 1963 | Subs: 1
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16 Aug 2014, 12:42 PM
#42
Posts: 125
T34/85s are fairly difficult to counter in the new meta because most soviet call ins are pretty broken (Most of them because of how early they can come out).
A conscript spam though? Come ooooooon. Losing to a conscript spam as the Ostheer is a L2P issue. It has nothing to do with the game.
Your extremely bad mannered attitude in the game, as evidenced by the chat log, is also very difficult to sympathize with.
I personally quite like the new system. No more "If you get cut off, you can't reinforce or build new shit any more". Also, the simplified upkeep system greatly increases a player's chance to comeback into the game.
A conscript spam though? Come ooooooon. Losing to a conscript spam as the Ostheer is a L2P issue. It has nothing to do with the game.
Your extremely bad mannered attitude in the game, as evidenced by the chat log, is also very difficult to sympathize with.
I personally quite like the new system. No more "If you get cut off, you can't reinforce or build new shit any more". Also, the simplified upkeep system greatly increases a player's chance to comeback into the game.
16 Aug 2014, 13:20 PM
#43
Posts: 1221 | Subs: 41
The old system needs to come back. Getting tired of seeing rifle spam, volks spam, PF spam, fallschirmjager spam, etc etc.
Way to misunderstand.
You could just raise the popcap on mainline infantry if you really thought this was an issue. Also just to be clear, in the end it really was only US infantry with the ridiculous upkeep. As a simple example, conscripts with their upkeep of 9 are actually more expensive than a squad of KCH (8), and the exact same cost as Commandos (9). I'm pretty sure Conscripts would in fact be the most expensive infantry unit upkeep wise ignoring US units. I guess I worded my original post badly, mainline infantry in CoH2 is RELATIVELY cheaper than in CoH1 purely because support weapons and tanks are much more expensive in upkeep.
16 Aug 2014, 13:44 PM
#44
Posts: 158
So far i did not encounter any problems with upkeep , but rather with popcap . However to say the least the Constant 100 Popcap limit is both a good and a bad thing IMO. While you have to actually maintain combined arms in teamgames and cant spam as hard in teamgames (regardless of this replay - didnt watch) it also severly limits the possibility to close out games , once you reach popcap and have good unit perseverance you will get punished either way. Because you throw away your vetted units to build elite inf/better units or you stick to what you have.
What i think might be a good change to popcap is that you have a basic 100 poplimit no matter how much map you hold - but if you were to hold 60% of the map you popcap would be 105 (5 pop for every 10% of map you hold from 50% up)
That would grant you about one extra unit to help close out advatages you maintain into the mid/early-lategame
What i think might be a good change to popcap is that you have a basic 100 poplimit no matter how much map you hold - but if you were to hold 60% of the map you popcap would be 105 (5 pop for every 10% of map you hold from 50% up)
That would grant you about one extra unit to help close out advatages you maintain into the mid/early-lategame
16 Aug 2014, 14:19 PM
#45
Posts: 1963 | Subs: 1
Oops my bad I guess. Yes I agree with raising the popcap of core infantry.
Way to misunderstand.
You could just raise the popcap on mainline infantry if you really thought this was an issue. Also just to be clear, in the end it really was only US infantry with the ridiculous upkeep. As a simple example, conscripts with their upkeep of 9 are actually more expensive than a squad of KCH (8), and the exact same cost as Commandos (9). I'm pretty sure Conscripts would in fact be the most expensive infantry unit upkeep wise ignoring US units. I guess I worded my original post badly, mainline infantry in CoH2 is RELATIVELY cheaper than in CoH1 purely because support weapons and tanks are much more expensive in upkeep.
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16 Aug 2014, 14:26 PM
#46
4 
Posts: 640 | Subs: 1
In CoH1, every single unit had its own upkeep value, many of which made no sense whatsoever. But apparently the fact that the super high upkeep on mainline infantry limited spamming them makes it such a superior system despite all the horribly stupid things it had otherwise (Wehr sniper upkeep half of a rifleman squad, Ostwind upkeep less than a rifle squad etc)
Cruzz it seems to me you are missing the fact that in vCoH all US units had INTENTIONALLY much higher base upkeep than their Axis counterparts, by design, for some reason I can't remember. Possibly flavour to distinguish from Axis, or compensate the fact Axis needed to buy their veterancy (until the expansion anyways).
Then as you build your Supply Yard (a building necessary for teching anyway) the upkeep is reduced somewhat, with an option to further reduce upkeep by buying supply yard upgrades (ridiculously fuel-priced).
It still seems to me that people in this thread are talking about 2 completely different things and lumping it under the "old system".
a) the fact your popcap was limited by the territories you held
b) the fact that upkeep costs were in no way tied to the popcap cost of the unit
16 Aug 2014, 14:33 PM
#47
1 
Posts: 927
That is also the mechanic that makes coh2 more interesting then any other RTS.
Get an edge in any other RTS game, you'll have that edge until GG which might be right after first skirmish.
Remember Warcraft3? Loosing 2-3 grunts(these were the basic orc troops?) early pretty much sealed the game.
Thats what makes a strategy game good, just like chess... do a bad move and lose a pawn? Now you are at a disadvantage for the rest of the game unless you with skill make a comeback... chess never gives you back your pieces after a while...
Nothing is worse than outplaying your opponent for half the game and then with the stupid comeback mechanic they just call in double t-34-85 and suddenly its even again. Even if you hold both fuels for a good part of the game everyone has over 200 fuel around 11 CP if they dont build any buildings which noone hardly does anymore because the best units are callins anyway.
16 Aug 2014, 14:44 PM
#48
Posts: 171
This game is about turning a profit, anything else is secondary. With that said - people wouldn't be able to use their call ins as much if they didn't have a built in pop cap of 100. It would make the people that have paid money unhappy not to have the pop cap to utilize their new stuff and less likely to purchase future commanders. This goes back to my first point - money.
16 Aug 2014, 14:46 PM
#49
4 Posts: 640 | Subs: 1
Nothing is worse than outplaying your opponent for half the game and then with the stupid comeback mechanic they just call in double t-34-85 and suddenly its even again. Even if you hold both fuels for a good part of the game everyone has over 200 fuel around 11 CP if they dont build any buildings which noone hardly does anymore because the best units are callins anyway.Call-ins are skewing the game, definitely. I cannot agree with you more.
However this has nothing to do with "comeback mechanics" of manpower upkeep or popcap.
Please do not get rid of a really cool mechanic (manpower upkeep tied to population) because of a completely different aspect of the game (call-ins not requiring teching).
16 Aug 2014, 16:23 PM
#50
Posts: 971
At first I preferred CoH2 upkeep system. Even at high level ranked games, most vCoH1 players left the game after the first skirmish.
Did you lost you first bike? gg
Couldn't you take your fuel in the first minutes? gg.
But after so many CoH2 crazy comebacks due to Tigers, ISUs, etc, I'm tired of this and I'd prefer something more alike to CoH1 system.
If I based my strategy in a strong midgame, with lots of T34/76 and T70, it's sad to push my enemy till his base just to be raped by a Tiger Ace call-in which my tanks can't even scratch their paint.
Just because being cornered gives him the possibility to pump ATguns, grens, etc, like a damned factory while I struggle to replace my losses due to the stupid upkeep that penalizes the player who controls all the map.
Map control should decrease upkeep and give more popcap, and for making up, early game powerful factions should have more upkeep.
Did you lost you first bike? gg
Couldn't you take your fuel in the first minutes? gg.
But after so many CoH2 crazy comebacks due to Tigers, ISUs, etc, I'm tired of this and I'd prefer something more alike to CoH1 system.
If I based my strategy in a strong midgame, with lots of T34/76 and T70, it's sad to push my enemy till his base just to be raped by a Tiger Ace call-in which my tanks can't even scratch their paint.
Just because being cornered gives him the possibility to pump ATguns, grens, etc, like a damned factory while I struggle to replace my losses due to the stupid upkeep that penalizes the player who controls all the map.
Map control should decrease upkeep and give more popcap, and for making up, early game powerful factions should have more upkeep.
16 Aug 2014, 16:34 PM
#51
4 Posts: 640 | Subs: 1
Just because being cornered gives him the possibility to pump ATguns, grens, etc, like a damned factory while I struggle to replace my losses due to the stupid upkeep that penalizes the player who controls all the map.The upkeep penalizes the player with more units on the field, it has no connection to map control.
The penalty is not enough to be able to turn the games around on its own. It is the callins that are the problem here.
Let's say you have 50 pop more than your opponent. That is HUGE. Your army is DOUBLE his size at this point.
This translates into extra 75 manpower per minute for him, comparatively. Whoop dee do, every four minutes he can get an extra infantry squad compared to you. What is your huge army doing all this time? Sitting down? Extra MP is an advantage, of course, but as far as advantages go I would take having an army double his size every day of the week.
Now consider that this advantage could also translate into an extra Tiger for him compared to you, after 9 minutes or so. And THERE we have a problem.
16 Aug 2014, 16:57 PM
#52
Posts: 971
The upkeep penalizes the player with more units on the field, it has no connection to map control.
The penalty is not enough to be able to turn the games around on its own. It is the callins that are the problem here.
Let's say you have 50 pop more than your opponent. That is HUGE. Your army is DOUBLE his size at this point.
This translates into extra 75 manpower per minute for him, comparatively. Whoop dee do, every four minutes he can get an extra infantry squad compared to you. What is your huge army doing all this time? Sitting down? Extra MP is an advantage, of course, but as far as advantages go I would take having an army double his size every day of the week.
Now consider that this advantage could also translate into an extra Tiger for him compared to you, after 9 minutes or so. And THERE we have a problem.
Exactly as you said. Comebacks usually are done calling a superheavy tank which little by little can retake map.
In CoH1 there's no way that a cornered player could call a King Tiger or Pershing, and in the case it would, it was because he didn't spend any map in 10 minutes.
16 Aug 2014, 17:08 PM
#53
Posts: 125
1 con -10 Manpower Per Min, 2nd con: -11 MPM, 3th con : -15 MPN , 4th con: - 19 MPM, so you stack cons you stack les manpower with a additionnal X% per same unit maby that would help
18 Aug 2014, 12:52 PM
#54
Posts: 126
Oddly enough I found the vcoh pop cap system great for stopping blobs. The strength of a blob is concentrated force and minimal micro. With the original vcoh popcap system you could cut off a blobbers popcap. This would prevent them from reinforcing their blob or building counters to fight your counter blob force. It also forced blobbers to split their force up to recapture territory.
The current system adds to the blobbers paradise of coh2 sadly.
The current system adds to the blobbers paradise of coh2 sadly.
18 Aug 2014, 13:06 PM
#55
Posts: 971
The current system adds to the blobbers paradise of coh2 sadly.
Exactly.
Outcapping a blobbing player doesn't get properly rewarded, and eventually, controlling just a fuel point, he will have tanks and start reclaiming the lost territory.
In vCoH you could simply avoid the blob and start capping everywhere, eventually you would have much more manpower than your enemy, and you would tech much faster .
18 Aug 2014, 19:55 PM
#56
Posts: 306
Exactly.
Outcapping a blobbing player doesn't get properly rewarded, and eventually, controlling just a fuel point, he will have tanks and start reclaiming the lost territory.
In vCoH you could simply avoid the blob and start capping everywhere, eventually you would have much more manpower than your enemy, and you would tech much faster .
Not to mention that this mechanic also promotes floating Manpower out of all things.
I find it quite stupid that I get more a efficient income/economy if I try to RESTRICT my army growth. For god sakes this is a war game. This mechanic is completely backwards and needs a rework.
18 Aug 2014, 20:25 PM
#57
Posts: 950 | Subs: 1
Not to mention that this mechanic also promotes floating Manpower out of all things.
I find it quite stupid that I get more a efficient income/economy if I try to RESTRICT my army growth. For god sakes this is a war game. This mechanic is completely backwards and needs a rework.
this mechanic is not backwards. if you can win with no units just so you can keep your income at +300/min go right ahead.
you have to build units to win games. you dont need any more reward than that. increasing mp income when you build units would be extremely broken. spamming infantry would make it easier to spam more infantry.
18 Aug 2014, 20:47 PM
#58
Posts: 1355
Cons have 6 Popcap
T34-85s have 14 each.
8 cons x 6 = 48
5 T34/85 x 14 = 70
How did they do that OP?
Whatever!!!!
T34-85s have 14 each.
8 cons x 6 = 48
5 T34/85 x 14 = 70
How did they do that OP?
Whatever!!!!
18 Aug 2014, 21:14 PM
#59
Posts: 306
this mechanic is not backwards. if you can win with no units just so you can keep your income at +300/min go right ahead.
you have to build units to win games. you dont need any more reward than that. increasing mp income when you build units would be extremely broken. spamming infantry would make it easier to spam more infantry.
Maybe this mechanic might even be better than the vCOH mechanic. However, it still doesn't change the fact that there's a certain degree of annoyance that comes with being penalized income for every unit built. I'm pretty sure a lot of people feel the same way.
I never said increasing mp income for the promotion of spam fests, but rather, upkeep penalties should be kept to a minimum. Why in the world would having a late game army justify a minus 3 digit upkeep penalty? It's ridiculous.
Personally, I would jam the upkeep levels down, maybe there are better options, who knows? I just know that this mechanic should be fine tuned a bit because currently, it's just plain annoying. Plus it wouldn't skew balance in any way shape or form.
Players shouldn't be fighting against the game, they should be fighting other players.
18 Aug 2014, 21:35 PM
#60
Posts: 950 | Subs: 1
this isnt a mechanic exclusive to relic. warcraft 3 had increasing upkeep based on army size as well. the intention is make it harder to reach pop cap. having a constant (or near constant) income despite your army size would result in armies growing at a linear rate. just look how fast armies grow at the beginning of the game. it would do that for the entire course of the game.
the current system slows down the growth rate as armies grow. i wouldnt consider this a penalty. do you see any high level players sitting in the base with no units just so they can keep their mp income up? no, because its not an advantage.
just watch lenny's stream sometime. he frequently spams cons. he takes huge numbers of losses, but it doesnt matter because reinforce costs are so low. now imagine having little to no upkeep. it would only promote more spamming and blobbing.
the current system slows down the growth rate as armies grow. i wouldnt consider this a penalty. do you see any high level players sitting in the base with no units just so they can keep their mp income up? no, because its not an advantage.
just watch lenny's stream sometime. he frequently spams cons. he takes huge numbers of losses, but it doesnt matter because reinforce costs are so low. now imagine having little to no upkeep. it would only promote more spamming and blobbing.
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