miragefla's Wehrmacht/Ostheer Balance Ideas and Suggestions

Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, maybe I'm a person who needs to be told L2P and a whole bunch of other things, but here's a list of what I think needs to be fixed for the Ostheer faction. I will not comment on the other factions as I don't have the experience of playing them as often, though a few suggestion can be applied to the others.

I'll just generalize costs, no specifics for reductions.

Heavy Tank Call-Ins: Need to be tied to tech. Make Tigers/Elephants only available at BP 3, maybe linked to the Heavy Panzer Korp, but still called-in.

Command Tanks, Pumas, and maybe infantry StuG Es I think are alright, but could be moved to tiers or building requirements so as long as the other faction have the same treatment as well. Less call-in meta, the better.

Battle Phases 3: BP 3 and the tech building should be cheaper in fuel and maybe MP. At around 90 Fuel and 360MP(?), combined with the other Battle Phases and structures you're investing tons of manpower and fuel for even more expensive units.

MG42:This could apply to all MGs. Remann faster, able to retreat immediately even when the gunner is shot off before he reaches the weapon, just have the gun teleport at that point. Free instant reload when out of combat to it doesn't reload at the worst time possible.

Mortar: Can be applied to all mortars. Needs to immediately begin packing up upon command rather than occasionally waiting if the crew decides to reposition to tube due to someone coming from a different angle or waiting a few seconds after a shell is launched.

German Sniper: Health increased from 48 to either 64 or 80. Sure he's deadly but something even looking at him can mean a dead sniper and he already takes a lot of micro away from the main army to keep alive since you're going to be down half a Gren or MG along with having a very fragile unit in place of something that can hold the line better.

Panzer Grenadiers: Need more survivability in either received accuracy or armour so they can survive better against small-arms. They are used more for the AT support role than anything else from what I've seen. It may be the LMG problem, but they are outshined by Grenadiers in the AI department for most purposes, including cost.

251 Flame Halftrack: Needs to arrive sooner since it appears when AT or armour is hitting the field and those 120 munitions could probably go elsewhere by then.

and/or

Upgrade cost less so it doesn't break the bank for a unit mainly there for support that doesn't have range or suppression like the Quad.


Brummbar: Needs a lower price in fuel

and/or

Return its scatter value back to one.

It's an expensive vehicle meant to pulp infantry, support weapons, and structures while stunning/hurting the odd tank. With its long reload it needs to be able to hit its target and since rotating counts as moving, it can be hard to get the Brummbar to hit something if it decides to rotate even a tiny bit.

Probably needs hold-fire along with every other vehicle.

Panther: Give it the same accuracy as the OKW Panther, possibly reduce reload time from 5.8-6.7 to 5.5-6.0 so it can be more lethal against its intended targets, other tanks.

It costs 490 MP and 175 Fuel along with tech, it should be able to excel or at least do well against both mediums and heavies, but the long reload holds it back and most of the Allied tanks which are mediums, not heavy tanks. (Especially if the call-ins are changed)

Range is nice, but the Panther can't sight for itself(unless using scopes) and spotters can't always be available when chasing which is utilizing its speed advantage.

Osttruppen: You can't trust Osttruppen, no really you can't.

They're only good in combat when they pick-up weapons, but aside from that they're pretty horrible. They should at least do some damage. Yes, they fulfill other roles, but would it hurt for them to actually be able to beat other units that are in a bad position and them in a good one? Maybe increase base accuracy of their rifles.

Pak 40: Fix Target Weakpoint: needs work like the StuG where it tracks the target, not attack the ground where the target is/was at. This ability is almost pointless unless the enemy is standing still on flat ground.

Pak 43 and Howtizers: More resistance to being bombed/instant-gibbed by off-maps.
Pretty sure this is needed as it's kind of hard to protect these things if someone just peaks at them and then a button is pushed ensuring the loss 500-600 including vet since they can't move.
-Apply to other factions as well who have similar counterparts.

Maybe Needs Changing

221/222/251 HT: Both vehicles have continued to receive armour nerfs for reason I don't understand, aside from the FHT of the past.

Sure they're not dying horribly to infantry small-arms, but given their timing they could maybe use a slight durability increase. I doubt you'd be seeing hordes of 221s/222 even with these changes.

Panzer Werfer: Maybe a cooldown decrease from 100 to 80-90 seconds, though may not be needed if tech costs get reduced allowing it to hit the fielder sooner to build vet.

Delusional Change because we all need one:

StuG: I want my small target size back!

Those are all I can say for now, everything else is either fine, in my opinion, or I haven't used enough (Elephant). Any criticism or comments is welcome so as long as we can keep it clean.

I think that BP1 should be cheaper instead, so that you can actually get a 222 to counter m3 spam early. m3 flamers can start at 2 mins, 222 can only come out at 6 mins.... OR FIX early m3s (2 mins). It's an ridiculous cheese against all axis factions.

The teching of BP2/3 is balanced. The only thing that makes it 'weak' are Soviet + Ostheer heavy tank call ins, which needs to be fixed because they over perform in all matchups.

Even if the tiger was tied to T3 teching, it's still cheaper to get that than a panther. But it's a good start, also if all heavy tank CP costs increased too.

It would be nice if the 222 didn't explode in 1 hit to 30 munition mines too. It just needs a 10-20 health boost for that, since a lot of light vehicles now (post-WFA) seem to have high health.

I'm sad to see that this thread is not getting much attention. These are all great suggestions. Especially the call-ins requiring tech (for all factions of course). I do feel that StugEs (and Pumas) need to be linked to at least BP2. StugEs are super powerful and are hard to counter with the USF because of the low performance of Bazookas and high teching cost of the captain.

The flame halftrack upgrade is tricky, it used to arrive very early and all you would see is flame HT every game. However, it's never seen anymore after the nerf. My suggestion would be to remove the BP2 requirement, but remove the ability to reinforce once upgraded (same for Soviet HT). This would still make the FHT a nasty vehicle to deal with, but not a unit that has to be focused down ASAP or else you will lose the game.

It would be nice if the 222 didn't explode in 1 hit to 30 munition mines too. It just needs a 10-20 health boost for that, since a lot of light vehicles now (post-WFA) seem to have high health.

Mine vs vehicle balance is fine I feel. Other scout cars have the same health as the 222. The Kubelwagen, M3, 222 and american scout car (forgot the name) all die to one 30 ammo mine, be it a soviet or OKW mine. Other, non-arty light vehicles all have enough HP to survive a 30 ammo mine, but get insta killed by 60 ammo teller or the american 60 ammo mine. These mines however can also 1-shot much more expensive units like the T70, SU76, M8 etc.

I really think this threat has a few good points, but i do not think relic will ever make ostheer t4 viable again.Im so sad about that.

My suggestion would be to remove the BP2 requirement, but remove the ability to reinforce once upgraded (same for Soviet HT).

Then you wouldn't see a M5 Quad again, because as AI unit both T70 and T34 are better, and its cheaper fuel cost doesn't compensate the quantity of ammo the upgrade needs.

Remember that it is a T3 unit. It comes much latter than the Ost HT.

Great suggestions

Good suggestions.

Good points...main issues for me...teching,panther and panzergrenadiers.And mg 42 in buildings.

Side issue lots of useless units and boring meta.

Good points...main issues for me...teching,panther and panzergrenadiers.And mg 42 in buildings.

Side issue lots of useless units and boring meta.

Agree. Maxim and US rifles are just killing the game...

Agree. Maxim and US rifles are just killing the game...

Maxims and US rifles are not the problem, they are the solution. Think about it.

Maxims and US rifles are not the problem, they are the solution. Think about it.

I know what you are trying to say they are the solution to limited option but thats no justification to make them game breaking or close to. THey need their performance to be addressed.

I know what you are trying to say they are the solution to limited option but thats no justification to make them game breaking or close to. THey need their performance to be addressed.

Except... they are not.

Rifles might have slightly too big long range dps, but there is nothing wrong with maxims, they are pure l2p issue.

Except... they are not.

Rifles might have slightly too big long range dps, but there is nothing wrong with maxims, they are pure l2p issue.

2vs2 players do not understand the problems of 1 vs 1 issues. maxims become less useful as more infantry squads appear. in 2vs 2 they have less impact then 1 vs 1 where early game dps is low enough for the maxim to be op.

the maxim is the only unit in the entire relic franchise that can be spammed while its a support weapon. this is a major mistake and needs to be addressed by reducing the maxim squad from 6 to 4 man.

Rifles are fine however. early game power or not combined arms works well against them.

2vs2 players do not understand the problems of 1 vs 1 issues. maxims become less useful as more infantry squads appear. in 2vs 2 they have less impact then 1 vs 1 where early game dps is low enough for the maxim to be op.

the maxim is the only unit in the entire relic franchise that can be spammed while its a support weapon. this is a major mistake and needs to be addressed by reducing the maxim squad from 6 to 4 man.

Rifles are fine however. early game power or not combined arms works well against them.

I regularly beat maximspam in 1v1. I haven't seen a single good 1v1 player ever complain about them either. There are many ways to counter it and maximspam has very little scaling, so once you get your T3 rolling he's toast. Before even that, good MG42 placement, superior micro, buildings, riflenades, mortar HT, normal HT, mortar, sniper all counter Maxims and are all available in T2 or earlier. If maxim is to be down to 4 men, then it needs an AoE suppression buff so that it can actually do its job as an HMG and suppress more than a lone vet 0 grenadier.

As for the thread, I agree with a good part of those, but we surely shouldn't put all of them in the game at once. Sweeping buffs like that wouldn't be good for the meta, I think. The Panther and overall teching changes are the most urgent, after that buff PGrens, Osttruppen and 221. See how the faction does from there, because Ostheer at the moment is still powerful.

Call ins tied to Wehrmacht Battle phases, Soviet Tier Buildings, USF Officiers and OKW Tier buildings would be great!

Great Suggestions dude.

I hope no allies bullshitters will ever come to this thread and discredit you

2vs2 players do not understand the problems of 1 vs 1 issues. maxims become less useful as more infantry squads appear. in 2vs 2 they have less impact then 1 vs 1 where early game dps is low enough for the maxim to be op.

the maxim is the only unit in the entire relic franchise that can be spammed while its a support weapon. this is a major mistake and needs to be addressed by reducing the maxim squad from 6 to 4 man.

Rifles are fine however. early game power or not combined arms works well against them.

And here i thought, your complains regarding maxim spam were due to teamgames, specially 2v2...

What was the last time we have seen maxim spam "work?

2vs2 players do not understand the problems of 1 vs 1 issues. maxims become less useful as more infantry squads appear. in 2vs 2 they have less impact then 1 vs 1 where early game dps is low enough for the maxim to be op.


the maxim is the only unit in the entire relic franchise that can be spammed while its a support weapon. this is a major mistake and needs to be addressed by reducing the maxim squad from 6 to 4 man.

And all this time I had thought you were complaining about maxims in a teamgames because they sure as hell are not problematic in 1vs1.

Yeah, those SSSS builds from coh1 sure weren't support weapons in any shape or form. Or how about mg42 at coh2 release?

I regularly beat maximspam in 1v1. I haven't seen a single good 1v1 player ever complain about them either. There are many ways to counter it and maximspam has very little scaling, so once you get your T3 rolling he's toast. Before even that, good MG42 placement, superior micro, buildings, riflenades, mortar HT, normal HT, mortar, sniper all counter Maxims and are all available in T2 or earlier. If maxim is to be down to 4 men, then it needs an AoE suppression buff so that it can actually do its job as an HMG and suppress more than a lone vet 0 grenadier.

Of course you defeat maxim spam 1 vs 1 ,and i can do so as well. it doesnt mean however that this unit is not over performing .. also you only list ost strat against it but no okw strats. thats because the okw has far less tools available then the ostheer. if a support unit is spammed over the regular infantry then something is wrong with it period.

Maxim spam is major issue only in team games..1 vs 1,i just build a sniper.Or cap otherwise ,or mortar..easy.In team games with support from temamate against a half good player its absolutely OP and cheese.Especially in maps with buildings forget it.