Who else loves the ISU these days? :D

SU85 is extremely bulky, slow and lacks a decent frontal armor to match its slow speed. Btw, its pen values and price are not magnificent if compared with soviet call-ins. When most axis AT power comes from schrecks blobs, you realize that SU85 doesn't do the job at all.

Katyusha is still a RNG arty that sometimes can fail spectacularly even at close range. It's a huge and bulky unit and can be one-shotted and destroyed by everything except small weapon. It isn't useful for dealing with attacking infantry, and the most you can achieve with them is to punish camping players or break havok on a OKW heal truck.
Against no-braindead players, only the first 4 rockets will do damage, while other mobile arty units can concetrate all its fire power in a single barrage.

Su76, no comments.

In resume, going T4 means no AI power, as katyusha fires with unpredected results every 110 seconds (Hi, Mr.overnerf) and once flanked it will be destroyed without any chance to escape. With axis infantry raping all soviet infantry except shocks, you will need armored AI power, yes or yes.

And SU85 is a microintensive unit unable to kill heavys like Elefant or Jadgtiger, even in packs, due to its slow speed, lack of armor and non-rotatory turret. Moreover, you can't be aggresive with them as they're a terrible flanking unit.

T4 means playing defensively, which is terrible for soviets which rely in being aggressive against the axis better lategame units.

It's much safer to make T34s and make up for its lacking AT power with Mark Vehicle, ZiS and guards.

Sorry but I disagree. Back in the day T4 was the only Soviet tool to deal with tanks because T34 couldn't deal with anything else than a PzIV and this didn't change. Katyusha still works against infantry. Tested myself in recent game. It's not game braking unit anymore so o know it hurts.

You actuality repeated my argument yourself saying it's easier and better to go call ins than T4.

He already said that. Those are listed in his post.

So no, he didn't said that.

That leaves the German player with no hard counter (except the JT and Ele). The non doctrinal options are insufficient - mediocre at best.

He already said that. Those are listed in his post.

Saying ie. an Elefant hardcounters an ISU is akin to saying a Puma hardcounters an AAA HT. It really doesnt. In isolation and if properly microed, the Ele has an advantage, but the margin is by no means really pronounced. Also, consider the doctrines ISU comes with. Both of them have bombing - which is devastating - and the more commonly applied one also has mark target and Guards, which all perfectly synergize and erode whatever edge the Ele possesses decisively.

Why nerf ISU? it fires a freaking 152 mm shell!!! It is meant o smash tanks and infantry. I would look to change soviet design before nerfing isu; i believe soviet design is the core issue (weak non-doctrinal units, reliance on commanders and call ins etc)

...

You are missing the point.

Cardboard Tank had already listed exactly the same counters Katitof listed in his subsequent post.
Apparently he overlooked them by reading the post too fast. I bolded, underlined and redded the text for emphasis of where he had already listed exactly the same counters Katitof thereafter did.

If you disagree with Katitofs or Cardboard Tanks posts or points, take it up with them.

My only involvement was to point out that Cardboard Tank had indeed already listed exactly the JT and Ele in the previous post (as you can see highlighted in red).

^^^

Dude, its Hammertime.
@Cannonade: I fully understood, I just quoted the wrong post. My bad.

Dude, its Hammertime.
@Cannonade: I fully understood, I just quoted the wrong post. My bad.

Np!

Sorry but I disagree. Back in the day T4 was the only Soviet tool to deal with tanks because T34 couldn't deal with anything else than a PzIV and this didn't change. Katyusha still works against infantry. Tested myself in recent game. It's not game braking unit anymore so o know it hurts.

You actuality repeated my argument yourself saying it's easier and better to go call ins than T4.

The old SU85, and by hence T4, was indeed the soviet meta long ago. But it was because SU85 was OP thanks to its acceleration that enabled fast attacks and retreats, making it (well microed) unflankeable.
Now SU85 post nerf is a clunky tank, that does a mediocre job as tank hunter because its speed doesn't match its lack of armour. Give it the frontal armor of a Jadgpanther or the Jackson's speed, but right now it is only useful in narrow maps, what is precisely the maps where ZiS does better, so both units overlap in their function being one of them cheaper.

And Katyusha kills infantry, indeed... but randomly. Some barrages wipes half enemy team, some others don't do anything at all. Nobody wants to gamble making an expensive and absolutely fragile unit that sometimes fails spectacularly. At least with Stuka and Pwerfer you now that everything under the barrage area will be seriously damaged. Katyusha is not a bad unit but it is very unreliable.

So, in T4 we have an useless unit (SU76), an unreliable one (Katyusha) and one which a T2 unit does approximately the same function (SU85). And all them are useless by themselves, any enemy tank or infantry with schrecks can destroy them.


It's not surprise that soviet players prefer T3 whose units, althought doesn't shine in anything, can defend by itselves and they make a great support for infantry and call-ins.

tl;dr
T4 is currently useless. Soviet players will continue using IS2 and ISU152 as heavy tanks because the main tank is T34 which can't do shit against the axis heavys.

Made the mistake of going T4 on Trois Pont in 2v2, thinking a kat would be useful on a map with so many choke points.

Fired 4 volleys in 6 minutes or so, and I was lucky if any of the rockets actually landed close enough to wound a squad. It's as useless as it was before it got buffed. Meanwhile enemy made 3 stuka between them, and were constantly wiping squads due to the map being a series of streets.

My favorite part was when fallschirms popped out of a building and solo'd my kat in about 3 seconds.

Never going T4 again. Complete waste of fuel.

Here's a game worth looking at. decent level players.
http://www.coh2.org/replay/21956/comeback-vs-comeback-d

3 players got about 200 kills. One got 340, guess what he used? (forum guys: "LOL MICRO, HE USED SKILLZ U SUKZOrsss")

He was very good but I don't think 340 kills good. ISU forwards-backwards micro was perfect.

The old SU85, and by hence T4, was indeed the soviet meta long ago. But it was because SU85 was OP thanks to its acceleration that enabled fast attacks and retreats, making it (well microed) unflankeable.
Now SU85 post nerf is a clunky tank, that does a mediocre job as tank hunter because its speed doesn't match its lack of armour. Give it the frontal armor of a Jadgpanther or the Jackson's speed, but right now it is only useful in narrow maps, what is precisely the maps where ZiS does better, so both units overlap in their function being one of them cheaper.

And Katyusha kills infantry, indeed... but randomly. Some barrages wipes half enemy team, some others don't do anything at all. Nobody wants to gamble making an expensive and absolutely fragile unit that sometimes fails spectacularly. At least with Stuka and Pwerfer you now that everything under the barrage area will be seriously damaged. Katyusha is not a bad unit but it is very unreliable.

So, in T4 we have an useless unit (SU76), an unreliable one (Katyusha) and one which a T2 unit does approximately the same function (SU85). And all them are useless by themselves, any enemy tank or infantry with schrecks can destroy them.


It's not surprise that soviet players prefer T3 whose units, althought doesn't shine in anything, can defend by itselves and they make a great support for infantry and call-ins.

tl;dr
T4 is currently useless. Soviet players will continue using IS2 and ISU152 as heavy tanks because the main tank is T34 which can't do shit against the axis heavys.

Again T4 and especially SU85 is not useless and recent patch only proved it. It can deal with everything up to Tiger, Tiger including. You shouldn't expect for it to go toe to toe with Elephant same you wouldn't expect for SU76 to go against Stug.

Once again call ins outshines everything due to resources savings you can achieve and that's the real problem.

Made the mistake of going T4 on Trois Pont in 2v2

Also, Katyusha is useless in urban maps as half of the rockets hit buildings before landing.

"Unflankable" units on corridor/urban maps. I think i know what is the problem.

It's the squad wiping what's the biggest problem with ISU.
Your Vet3 infantry is getting killed from across the map and you don't even know where to attack. Combine this with 2 ZiS that can withstand incredible amount of firepower and you can't do anything, not even flank the bloody thing with your tanks.
I will start with supposed to be coming changes to Soviet weapon teams and maybe some reload increase?
I believe call ins changes would adjust ISU as well, delaying its arrival.
What I don't like in CoH2 meta the most right now is that all medium tanks are almost non existent right now because everyone is stalling game waiting for super heavies to arrive.

Here's a game worth looking at. decent level players.
http://www.coh2.org/replay/21956/comeback-vs-comeback-d

3 players got about 200 kills. One got 340, guess what he used? (forum guys: "LOL MICRO, HE USED SKILLZ U SUKZOrsss")

He was very good but I don't think 340 kills good. ISU forwards-backwards micro was perfect.

Sounds a lot like a kingtiger

There are several problems with the ISU:

-It realiably wipes squads over long distances;
-It deals alot of dmg to medium tanks and reliably stuns heavy tanks that try to approach it;
-Flanking Infantry suffers alot from the top mounted DSHK;
-Flanking it in general is extremely difficult;
-With t1/t2 stalling it usually arrives around the 20-25min mark.

Another proposal:

Make ISU so it's similar to Sturmtiger. Mechanics wise.