The swapping T70 and SU76 suggestion thread

only way I could justify buying this unit is if it A) shot HE rounds automatically at infantry like the M8 stuart and B) fired AP rounds at tanks with stats similar to the ZiS gun

I would be happy(er) if they just reduced the cost of the SU76 to something like 55 fuel again (this was it's cost a while back right?). Make it so cheap that you can just churn them out and overwhelm the enemy with numbers. They aren't particularly strong individually, but if you had four of them focus firing a PzIV? They would still be beatable, and if you catch one alone it's ruined, but at least making it noticably cheaper would mean you could play the numbers game easier.

First of all, I never mentioned a cost differential. Anywhere. So dunno where you got that from.

Second of all, t2-3 build would result in ZiS/SU76/T34.

Third of all, a doubled potential for indirect fire, and who even cares about T34, when you instead just callin T34/85s, as usual, and as is the case now. The ZiS/SU76 combination is far more versatile than a ZiS/T34 combination.

You aren't thinking hard enough about the meta repercussions.
The change has enormous repercussions. Its not a small simple change. Its a huge difference.

My point is that, whenever it's in T3 or T4, the SU-76 costs the exact same. This mythical SU-76/ZiS combo of yours would already be used all over the place, if it was actually any good, since you can access it right here, right now, at the same cost as if the SU was in T3. Yet, I haven't seen this combo used once, I've never seen a replay of it used, I haven't heard of it in in-game chat, I've not see anyone on the forums complain about it, except you.

It's just a bad combo. The ZiS need 60 ammo for each barrage, which has a short range and is easily avoided after the first volley. Situationaly useful, but nothing more. The SU-76 is not even built because it just sucks, especially comparative to its tier. You fork out fuel for a ZiS-3 on wheels with no good vet 1 ability that dies to any AT weapon and doesn't even have a firing arc so it's worthless against anyone with a minimum of micro. If a decently microed P4 comes knocking, your setup is useless, while a T-34 backed by a ZiS has a good chance of winning as wel las being much more reliable vs infantry. The barrage is also short ranged, inaccurate, and just not worth it at all when 35-40 more fuel gets you the Katyusha.

I actually thought your point was that a SU-76 and T-34 combo would be good, which is possible albeit unlikely. But you dismiss the T-34/76, so really, pretty much nothing changes by making the SU-76 in T3 regarding the combo of doom you made up. Yet suddenly it will become so OP as to shake the meta because, uh, you believe it?

I am in favor of a T70 and Su76 swap as it would create some interesting builds. The reason why call in spam is effective is because you can forego the cost of making T3 or T4 and get extra units out onto the field. Wether it is KV-1 Spam, or T34-85 getting Command Points as Soviets is not really an issue. You should want to tech up and build your buildings. Making T3 and T4 slightly more attractive would give you a choice between saving up your fuel and using it for callin units or using it early on and having added flexability to your gameplay.

Su85 + T70 combo is not an issue. The Su85 can spot for itself and with Vet 1 can see even further. Really it is there simply to give you something to help with anti infantry.

Su76 and T-34 would be a nice combo. To those scared of this idea keep in mind you Could call in a KV-1/Su-85 Combo which is much deadlier. The Su 76 needs its barrage ability nerfed, longer cooldown in favor of having the units price drop. During the original Coh 2 beta I remember this unit costing around 30-40 fuel which justified the cost. The main problem with this was the barrage spam. Instead of nerfing the barrage Relic chose to double the fuel cost making this unit very underwhelming. For a unit that dies in 2 hits the current fuel cost makes this unit extremely unattractive which is why you rarely see it made. Now I am not saying the Su76 should cost 30 fuel, but it does need to be slightly cheaper or buffed in order to be worth making.

Assuming the Su76 was in T3 would you rather have another T34 or make a Su76? I am sure most would go with the T34 and wouldn't bother wasting the fuel with the way the current Su76 which is why I would like to see its cost go down slightly as well.

Su76 sucks, it needs a major overhaul. Su85 is pretty bad too, and after the most recent katy nerf it is hardly worth the cost in a 1v1. So basically... Soviet t4 is back to the realm of extremely niche usefulness, which is sad.

I like the idea of swapping the t70 and su76, but I'd rather relic just buff the 76. Moving it to t3 with its current level of performance won't magically cause people to start building it.

This is a brilliant idea.

I like the idea of swapping the t70 and su76, but I'd rather relic just buff the 76. Moving it to t3 with its current level of performance won't magically cause people to start building it.

People might not build the SU76 but at least the T70 will have some use; It will give T4 an AI punch and we will start seeing it more often. Right now there's no point of making it since you can get a T-34/76 for 30 more fuel which serves as AT as well as AI.

i think the su76 could actually go nicely with t34s. when germans start building lots of paks and mgs, t34s can no longer push and become defensive. i typically rely on zis and mortars to barrage them. the zis is a drain on munitions and the mortars are fairly slow and unreliable. an su76 could fix both of those problems.

i would hope some other changes happen at the same time to make skipping teching for call ins less appealing (cost increase, require teching, higher cp requirement, etc). evere since the teching costs were increased and call ins were left untouched, there has been very little reason to tech. swapping t70 and su76 isnt enough to get people teching.

First of all, I never mentioned a cost differential. Anywhere. So dunno where you got that from.

Second of all, t2-3 build would result in ZiS/SU76/T34.

Third of all, a doubled potential for indirect fire, and who even cares about T34, when you instead just callin T34/85s, as usual, and as is the case now. The ZiS/SU76 combination is far more versatile than a ZiS/T34 combination.

You aren't thinking hard enough about the meta repercussions.
The change has enormous repercussions. Its not a small simple change. Its a huge difference.

Yes the ZIS+SU76+T34/85 call in is extreeeemely OP. This is why everybody is using this combo now.
Oh no, wait, nobody does that. At all.
The combo can also be used with the KV-1 (Zis+KV-1+SU76), and guess what, it's not that hard to deal with. The SU76 is 70 fuel, and its barrage is easily dodged. 70 fuel is a lot, that's almost 1 less T34/76 you need to deal with. 1 less T34/76 that can attack you and flank your armor.

You are severely overestimating the impact of this change. The SU76 is not that great of a unit, it fails utterly against heavy armor because it can't flank, it's easily killed by AT guns that share its range. As said, the barrage isn't that great either.

Saying that the change has a huge effect on the meta is true, but it will make it better. Unless of course you prefer a 1v1 meta where soviets can only build 1 type of tank or go for call ins; because we all know how exciting it is to play against infantry spam into T34/76s or T34/85s every game.

SU76 should just be removed and replaced with something else. I'm having difficulty finding a role for this unit when taking into account the timing of the T3 or T4 building.

Removing the SU76 from the game would be a disgrace. It was the 2nd most produced vehicle in the war by the Soviet Union.

You are severely overestimating the impact of this change. The SU76 is not that great of a unit, it fails utterly against heavy armor because it can't flank, it's easily killed by AT guns that share its range. As said, the barrage isn't that great either.
.

Ok. Thanks. Since its so crap in ypur opinion, there is not point in swapping it with T70.
Or, maybe reveal your true motive for wanting it moved, and what true use you actually see in it, despite the above.

Removing the SU76 from the game would be a disgrace. It was the 2nd most produced vehicle in the war by the Soviet Union.

Leaving it in game is also a disgrace.

Last time it was somewhat popular and actually useful was during vanila coh2 beta.

Ok. Thanks. Since its so crap in ypur opinion, there is not point in swapping it with T70.
Or, maybe reveal your true motive for wanting it moved, and what true use you actually see in it, despite the above.

My motive is this:

I play a lot of soviet and I'm fairly good with them (currently rank 15th). I'm not a huge fan of cheesy no-tech call-in tanks and I try to often use sub-optimal commanders to make the game more interesting.

I also try to do the same with the units I use. However when it comes to tanks there is a problem. Namely that you can only do 1 thing: Spam T34/76s. With Soviets you need tanks to deal with enemy infantry, this is a given. Lategame German infantry is superior to soviet infantry due to better scaling. There are only a few doctrines with shock troopers which kinda lend themselves to the use of other tanks, but those are few in number and play in mostly the same ways.

Now, there are 5 other tanks in the Soviet arsenal that are hardly used ever. This I feel is not because these units suck for their cost, but simply because either A) It locks you into a bad tier or B) There is another unit in the same tier that does everything better. T4 is useless in 1v1 because it does not deal with infantry. T3 does deal with infantry, but only one of the units can also harm tanks, this is why everyone who bothers to build tech goes for T3 -> T34/76, with maybe an M5 mixed in first if they can spare 120 ammo.

Edit: I do not want this change to make soviets more powerful. In fact I believe it won't even be a problem for balance. The SU76+T34/76 can already be achieved in the form of either SU76+T34/85 (if you have advanced warfare) or SU76+KV-1; if . SU85 + T-70 is also not a problem, the T70 is extremely nimble easily countered by both infantry based AT and tanks. But even though the T70 is not that impressive, it does have that one crucial thing that T4 lacks with makes it unviable in 1v1; the power to kill infantry.

I want this change to have a more divers Soviet metagame. It's boring to play with or against the same stuff every single game.

Leaving it in game is also a disgrace.

Last time it was somewhat popular and actually useful was during vanila coh2 beta.

I'd be more in favor of making it useful. There is little enough chance of Relic swapping units in tiers, and pretty much no chance of replacing a unit with another. Making the SU-76 a direct fire unit akin to the OKW Le.18 seems like the only solution to me. The artillery niche is already taken by the Kat, the tank destroyer niche is already filled by the SU-85.

It would be interesting if the Barrage ability was change into an ability with a toggle mode in which it turned into something close to the Okw Infantry support gun except on wheels.

I figured it was a given that this change isn't intended to "buff" Soviets, rather, to add diversity to their non-doctrinal builds.

SU76 does good work vs light vehicles and is more effective since the Elbe day update (much more mobile especially on roads) but no one knows that because it's totally unusable in its current tier placement. This is discussion for a separate thread I think but I want to see the SU76 auto-fire work in a way similar to the US M8 Scott in that it can arc its fire over obstacles.

While T70 is my favorite unit in the game there is zero incentive to build it in tier three when I can just wait less than a minute to get up to the fuel for a T34/76 instead.

I figured it was a given that this change isn't intended to "buff" Soviets, rather, to add diversity to their non-doctrinal builds.

SU76 does good work vs light vehicles and is more effective since the Elbe day update (much more mobile especially on roads) but no one knows that because it's totally unusable in its current tier placement. This is discussion for a separate thread I think but I want to see the SU76 auto-fire work in a way similar to the US M8 Scott in that it can arc its fire over obstacles.

While T70 is my favorite unit in the game there is zero incentive to build it in tier three when I can just wait less than a minute to get up to the fuel for a T34/76 instead.

Thats the gist of it. Lack of diversity makes certain units redundant.

No one has mentioned t34 ram here yet. I believe su76 would be one fine tool for finishing off those tanks with engine or main gun damaged, as they could safely just chip away at their own pace.

No one has mentioned t34 ram here yet.

Because its not relevent in any way or form. 300mp100fu unreliable AT nade doesn't bring much of an impact for the gameplay.

I believe su76 would be one fine tool for finishing off those tanks with engine or main gun damaged, as they could safely just chip away at their own pace.

Ram can't really break the gun anymore. Its a lucky crit if anything, 95% of the time its just engine damage, so SU-76 would finish off nothing.

The SU-76 should work exactly as the M8 howitzer carriage does now. Would be a good start.

SU76 should be deleted forever. It is the most usless unit in the game.