Infiltration grenades working as intended?

I don't have enough time to dedicate to try out a single thing as you think i have.

Sorry, but it is my opinion you simply cannot discuss an ability that you haven't used AND had used against you multiple times in ranked matches.

Pretty much the point, a cheap long range unit that can route/criple/wipe a specialisaed squad in close combat for 10MU dosen't seems too fair.

If your shocks get caught by infiltration grenades then you are doing something wrong. The windup / anim time is so large that the OKW player would need to exhibit extreme prediction skills and even then a timely right click by the Soviet player would just go around the grenades, as a good Shocks squad should be always moving until they get to a range that guarantees Volks wipe if they persist in their idea of a grenade throw animation. In no decent-level play scenario is it possible to "rout, cripple or wipe" a properly microed Shock squad with infiltration grenades, unless the Soviet player is sleeping.

Sorry, but it is my opinion you simply cannot discuss an ability that you haven't used AND had used against you multiple times in ranked matches.If your shocks get caught by infiltration grenades then you are doing something wrong. The windup / anim time is so large that the OKW player would need to exhibit extreme prediction skills and even then a timely right click by the Soviet player would just go around the grenades, as a good Shocks squad should be always moving until they get to a range that guarantees Volks wipe if they persist in their idea of a grenade throw animation. In no decent-level play scenario is it possible to "rout, cripple or wipe" a properly microed Shock squad with infiltration grenades, unless the Soviet player is sleeping.

Sorry but in my opinion you simply cannot post on this topic. You haven't been reading, following or simply whant to ignore what was said for your convinience. Please do so, i can garantee you that it's not an "OMG NERF" as you seems to whant to think. I'll be happy to discuss the subject with you. I Suggest you read the MilkaCow's posts, maybe he puts in an easier way to understand than me.

Sorry but in my opinion you simply cannot post on this topic. You haven't been reading, following or simply whant to ignore what was said for your convinience. Please do so, i can garantee you that it's not an "OMG NERF" as you seems to whant to think. I'll be happy to discuss the subject with you. I Suggest you read the MilkaCow's posts, maybe he puts in an easier way to understand than me.

he was trying to have a discussion but you just got in his face about reading some of your other rants.

I'll be happy to discuss the subject with you

Unfortunately, this does not seem to be the case.

Sorry but in my opinion you simply cannot post on this topic...

Because obviously any sane, intelligent man would agree with your assessment, without the need for debate or proof, and if they don't, why, it must be that they haven't been reading the thread, not that they have an argument or whatever. You are not here to debate, after all - you are here to state your opinion and have people agree with it, and label all others as fanboys.

Posting a topic does not grant you moderation rights to it. Nor should acquiescence with your balance notions be a prerequisite to posting in this thread. If someone disagrees with you you should debate THE POINT they made, not make up stories how they didn't read your thread.

I made my point - that considering all the factors I think infiltration grenades is in a good spot right now - and if you scroll up you will even see I was completely ok with a price increase for it.

My statement that one cannot judge an ability fully until one has been on both sides of it, multiple times - seems to still be unchallenged. I see you chose to not address this.

he was trying to have a discussion but you just got in his face about reading some of your other rants.

Never got in the face of MilkaCow, i enjoyed his posts and discussed with him. if you are talking about drChengele, he never joined the discussion the only post he made brought nothing new and it was absolutly not open for any discussion. It only served to show us how righteous he is. The things he talked about are referenced and being discussed on this very topic.

I have no problem discussing it with him if his post were at least opened for discussion. I also take part of the blame for over done it at first.

You made this post a day after encountering the ability for the first time, and have pretty much ignored advice on how to deal with it. All that's left to say is have fun eating grenade barrages to the face, and good luck with your campaign to get them nerfed.

It's definitely counterable and dodge able, yes. But so are every other grenade in the game. The difference is they cost only a mere 10 munitions and are generally better than 30+ munition grenades.

The problem is Volksgrens with their Shreks and 5 Vet are super powerful against Tanks, and with Infiltration Tactics they are still really good against all infantry in the game despite having a Shrek that counters tanks. It should be one or the other, with a munitions increase to 15 or 20 Volks blobs won't be able to spam infiltration tactics at every single given opportunity, and yet still have enough munitions to all be geared up with Shreks.

It's definitely counterable and dodge able, yes. But so are every other grenade in the game. The difference is they cost only a mere 10 munitions and are generally better than 30+ munition grenades.

The problem is Volksgrens with their Shreks and 5 Vet are super powerful against Tanks, and with Infiltration Tactics they are still really good against all infantry in the game despite having a Shrek that counters tanks. It should be one or the other, with a munitions increase to 15 or 20 Volks blobs won't be able to spam infiltration tactics at every single given opportunity, and yet still have enough munitions to all be geared up with Shreks.

I like the part "It's definitely counterable and dodge able, yes. But so are every other grenade in the game." Can i quote you in my OP? ... too late, already done! It's also why i talked about a bias earlier, i went a bit too hard tough.

I like what you bring with the shreks, it really gives them a nice swiss knife for any situation. But i can't say i agree with a price increase only. I'll refer you to "only a price increase" in the OP for the arguments on it(i just added that).

The main OP was updated after a request for tests VS real players in automatch (i won those games for those wondering). The results correlate with what was said:

• Randomness, no one likes an ability that is random and the ability to wipe squads for 10MU shouldn't be given to a 235MP long range squad on the sole argument that it's random. It is not fun for any partie involved.
  
• I never ever saw the timer on those volks and i tried to use this grenade as often as possible.
  
• The wind-up animation is almost non existant if used defensively (try it).
  
• With practice you can get them to land on the assaulting team almost everytime.
  
  
  

I have no problem discussing it with him if his post were at least opened for discussion. I also take part of the blame for over done it at first.

I have no beef with you, Commie. I am sorry my discussion was not up to your expectations. For the record, I agree that currently it's a no-brainer ability - there is never a reason to NOT throw them if you see the chance and the cooldown timer permits it. With a Volks heavy army they can be spammed, but then, this is an intentional strategic choice by the player, and spamming Volks has its disadvantages.

All that said, it's pretty obvious that they were designed so the factor limiting their spamming is the timer, not the ammo.

I am in favour of a cost increase - but not above 15 muni as long as the cooldown timer stays untouched. You can't have it both ways - they have an advantage (low cost) and drawbacks (dependent on squad size, long cooldown). You can't just remove the advantages, leave the drawbacks and call it a day.

I can agree with a munitions increase to 20 Munitions since the OKW have shed their 66% munitions income debuff.

I completely agree with this. I feel like a lot of OKW munis abilities need to be adjusted to match the new muni buff. Probably won't happen though, oh well.

And yet ? Wy the Volks should get so much power against a special unit in close combat?? Thats simply not balanced.

If you are a skilled player and if you know what to do with shocks the grenades should not be a problem for you. If the enemy has the prediction skill to throw those nades into your way he deserves the damage he does with them. It seems to me like you lack the skill to watch the very obvious motion of the volks or you can't handle your shocks or guards right, otherwise you wouldn't complain about those grenades which have a high damage potential but not against a skilled player. Watch your enemys units motions and you'll have no problems with them. And why shouldn't have volks a ability to do damage to elite units? Coh2 is no game like aoe with units that do nothing against the lategame units. And if we compare volks to conscripts you will notice that cosnscripts have much more anti infantry power and upgrades than volks and they cost only 5 mp more.

I'd rather have the american grenade then infiltration tactics.

I use these against MG spam. Run a squad up from the flank and boom. F your MG.

I tried to stay away from this topic because it was turning into another silly production, however, I had to ask.

How is anyone seriously considering this debating point that shocks are getting wiped by this ability?

I find that INCREDIBLY absurd. Unless you are running your shocks into a group of 4 volks squads, I can't even fathom how this would happen; and even then, you'd still have to do some work to get hit by this ability.

Firstly, this ability is incredibly easy to dodge and INCREDIBLY obvious when it's going down. The ENTIRE squad starts shrugging off their rifles and reaches for a grenade.

But that's not even the glaring counterpoint here. Secondly, and mainly, I'd hope we all know that this ability produces one less grenade per lost model. Considering the range of this ability, I can't even consider that there's a volks squad that is going to get off all 5 grenades at that range before 2 of the models are dead.

I'm baffled. The "it gives volks too much firepower against shocks" point can't even seriously be considered. Grasping for straws at this point.

I tried to stay away from this topic because it was turning into another silly production, however, I had to ask.

How is anyone seriously considering this debating point that shocks are getting wiped by this ability?

I find that INCREDIBLY absurd. Unless you are running your shocks into a group of 4 volks squads, I can't even fathom how this would happen; and even then, you'd still have to do some work to get hit by this ability.

Firstly, this ability is incredibly easy to dodge and INCREDIBLY obvious when it's going down. The ENTIRE squad starts shrugging off their rifles and reaches for a grenade.

But that's not even the glaring counterpoint here. Secondly, and mainly, I'd hope we all know that this ability produces one less grenade per lost model. Considering the range of this ability, I can't even consider that there's a volks squad that is going to get off all 5 grenades at that range before 2 of the models are dead.

I'm baffled. The "it gives volks too much firepower against shocks" point can't even seriously be considered. Grasping for straws at this point.

Hey man, if I can play devil's advocate for a second:

• Didn't you see the replay in OP? It's totally possible to wipe a shock squad with this ability.
  
• It's totally ridiculous for an ability that has wide AoE explosive damage to be effective against Shocks. Sure, they're a six man squad so AoE naturally does about 150% of the damage it would to a four man squad, but it's totally ridiculous to wipe them even though Shocks have armor.*
  
• It's totally ridiculous for an ability that can theoretically wipe a squad to cost 10 munis just because the victim is asleep at the keyboard. It's not like any other infantry squad has a zero munitions "flank an MG and gun down the crew without taking casualties" ability.
  
• If you don't take these arguments totally seriously just because people making them have never used the ability, then you're a racist. These arguments are founded on absolutely rock solid theory, no wobbly practical experience.
  
• Haven't you heard OP say "maths" and "numbers" eight times in this thread?
  

To address you directly: I'm also baffled. Most streamers are pretty good players, and OKW is at least a plurality (if not an outright majority) of games I've seen streamed. If Infil Nades were actually "teh pwnzor", I'd expect to see them used once in a while. I haven't kept precise count, but my impression both from streamers and my own play (I play about 4:3 Allies) is that Spec Ops is the least chosen doctrine by OKW in 1v1 and 2v2.




*Editor's note: Armor doesn't protect infantry from explosives.

Hey man, if I can play devil's advocate for a second:

• Didn't you see the replay in OP? It's totally possible to wipe a shock squad with this ability.
  
• It's totally ridiculous for an ability that has wide AoE explosive damage to be effective against Shocks. Sure, they're a six man squad so AoE naturally does about 150% of the damage it would to a four man squad, but it's totally ridiculous to wipe them even though Shocks have armor.*
  
• It's totally ridiculous for an ability that can theoretically wipe a squad to cost 10 munis just because the victim is asleep at the keyboard. It's not like any other infantry squad has a zero munitions "flank an MG and gun down the crew without taking casualties" ability.
  
• If you don't take these arguments totally seriously just because people making them have never used the ability, then you're a racist. These arguments are founded on absolutely rock solid theory, no wobbly practical experience.
  
• Haven't you heard OP say "maths" and "numbers" eight times in this thread?
  

To address you directly: I'm also baffled. Most streamers are pretty good players, and OKW is at least a plurality (if not an outright majority) of games I've seen streamed. If Infil Nades were actually "teh pwnzor", I'd expect to see them used once in a while. I haven't kept precise count, but my impression both from streamers and my own play (I play about 4:3 Allies) is that Spec Ops is the least chosen doctrine by OKW in 1v1 and 2v2.




*Editor's note: Armor doesn't protect infantry from explosives.

1.OFC Is POSSIBLE to wipe an entire scuad. Aslo, is posible to kill 3 Jacksons with a Panther IF the guy on the US team DOES NOT PUT ATENTION and his enemy does a little micro effort.
2.You still using the "Its possible" argument. Aslo, Shocks aren't titanium made, i don't see a reason to not get teared up by 5 grenades.
3. It costs 10 ammo, yes, but you need to seat your volks 120 out of combat to use it again. And its YOUR FAULT if you don't put attention at your units.
4. WTF Is RACISM doing here?
5. Maybe the @OP shoul check his maths.

Again, if you can't put atention at your units on the battlefield, you can't use common sense to solve 1+1 and notice (and aslo evade/kill) one of the weakest CQC unit running at 5 range and steping in front of you for 2 seconds (the time it takes THE ANIMATION -not the ability- to finish) i have bad news for you: You SHOULD stop playing CoH 2. But don't worry, Sims 2 is free at Origin.

1.OFC Is POSSIBLE to wipe an entire scuad. Aslo, is posible to kill 3 Jacksons with a Panther IF the guy on the US team DOES NOT PUT ATENTION and his enemy does a little micro effort.
2.You still using the "Its possible" argument. Aslo, Shocks aren't titanium made, i don't see a reason to not get teared up by 5 grenades.
3. It costs 10 ammo, yes, but you need to seat your volks 120 out of combat to use it again. And its YOUR FAULT if you don't put attention at your units.
4. WTF Is RACISM doing here?
5. Maybe the @OP shoul check his maths.

Again, if you can't put atention at your units on the battlefield, you can't use common sense to solve 1+1 and notice (and aslo evade/kill) one of the weakest CQC unit running at 5 range and steping in front of you for 2 seconds (the time it takes THE ANIMATION -not the ability- to finish) i have bad news for you: You SHOULD stop playing CoH 2. But don't worry, Sims 2 is free at Origin.

wait, the sims 2 is free?

wait, the sims 2 is free?

The Sims 2 with ALL HIS EXPANSIONS is free in Origin (Aslo, Bf3 is free in Origin too...)

Well, i hope you guys had a good wank showing everyone how leet you are. As PwnageMachine pointed out:
"It's definitely counterable and dodge able, yes. But so are every other grenade in the game."
Nevermind that the timer dosen't mean anything with the number of volks you can field.
Nevermind that this was an honest discussion on finding a way to make this ability less random and more interesting and ,sit tight, seeing it more in game! But i guess a good wank is better than any other outcome am i right?
There was an interesting discussion going with MilkaCow, he also asked for cilivities to not clog the thread with crap and carry on with the discussion.

Seeing this wouldn't happen, he left and so will I. A mod could close the thread at that point since all we can see here are post about people being so smart to miss the point and start telling us how "easy to dodge it is" (I'll refer to the quote above)

I am pulling my reverence.

@drChengele:
I am glad we could come down to something but seeing all that gets posted is nothing constructive (i am not looking at you), i give up.

Infiltration grenades working as intended? Yes.

Hmm, B4Z00K4, I can't tell if you're double trolling me, or if I really wasn't as obvious as I thought I was. If the latter, know that that list was meant to be taken as caricature.



On a serious note, commie, there were plenty of constructive posts in this thread before you turned it into a naval gazing exercise. Multiple people agreed that the ability is strong, explained the disadvantages that balance it, and gave you tips on how to mitigate its strengths and exploit its disadvantages. This was all perfectly constructive and civil. Rather than actually try to understand the game as it is, you responded by declaring yourself the Arbiter of Balance Who Doesn't Need to Play Both Sides of the Game in Order to Know That Those Infil Nades are OP.


It seems like you just wanted to have a thread for people who don't like infil nades to talk about how they wish the world was a different place. There's nothing wrong with that, but you should've titled your thread "Help Me Reimagine Infiltration Grenades" if you were just going to ignore everyone who tried to teach you how to deal with the real version.