Infiltration grenades working as intended?

I had this happens to me yesterday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kpxq1MxgB4

Are the infiltration grenades working as intended for squad whipe or near whipe? Shouldn't it cost more than 10 MU for that? And mixed with a volks spam, it's pretty cost efficient. The short fuse makes it pretty undodgable.

Edit: Here's different points that were discussed

It's doctrinal
I was told it wasn't an argument when discussing allied units, shouldn't be here.

It has a short range
Tested, it has the same thrown circle as the normal potato masher. Some of the grenades are even thrown a bit further with the dispersion and it's AOE is really big. There is also no too short range when being assaulted. Pop up to counter an assault. a bit tricky but with practice you learn the right spot to throw it.

Easy to dodge/see
Not more than other grenades, the time between the moment between the first guy starting his animation and throwing it is about the same as any other grenade. The short fuse of 0.6 is also a killer. Given that each grenade will make your squad run and thus not fire or give you any chance to really dodge the rest over a kinda lengthy period of time dosen't make it any easier to dodge compared to other grenades. It's much harder actually (short fuse, long "stun", wide area, not slower/shorter range than any other grenade).It's also cheaper than the molotov that IS easy to dodge, even after it hits you.

"It's definitely counterable and dodge able, yes. But so are every other grenade in the game."
pwnagemachine

Out of combat
The out of combat thing isn't even true, in the video you can see i saw them, shota few bullets at them and throw a smoke at them. Their presence was known and acknowledged from the start. Subscequent tests were made and you can still throw it even if you are in combat until you use it again. The first cooldown never resets, but other subscequent cooldowns will reset if attacked but only during a cooldown.

Long timer
I wouldn't worry about it as much as the other guy who failed his assault/got wipped/is forced to retreat to a 235MP unit (you can have alot of those). After testing in real games, i found that i never ever see the timer on those grenades on the volks, the sheer number of volks you can have makes it so. They are also easely replacable which gives them a fresh ability (on a cooldown but not resetable).

Low damage
Wide area, AOEs overlap, 40 damage per grenades. I let you do the maths. I also found that the minimum damage seemed to be about half the health of a squad and that's minimum, it can easely go above that.

RNG
This makes the grenade behave wierdly, you can throw it right under their feet and do almost nothing while other times you wipe them. This makes this ability not so interesting when it bahave like that.

Just a price increase
As MilkaCow pointed out, just a price increase would relegate this ability to the bin, randomness and higher cost don't go so well together. The potential to wipe squads of specilists with a cheap squad shouldn't be given only on the sole argument that "it's" random. It's not fun for any partie involved.

Biggest problem?
The low cost (235 MP) good at long range volks unit become a killing machine at close range, be it on the assault or defensively.
If used defensively, there is not much queus to what's about to unfold. Since you don't have to move it pops out almost automaticaly (try it). With a bit of practice you can learn to land it right on top of the assaulting squad.
Meaning that for 10MU you can have that cheap unit survive shock troops assault and wipe/route them. So much for "softening up if you suprise your enemy".
Somes might say : "keep your troops away!" ... to which i would say: " Would you keep your shock troops away from volks just because of a 10MU ability?" Even if you fail? whatever, it was 10MU.
Their low cost and high availibity + being good at long range means that the volks should often have this ability ready, or at least one of them. WHen testing, i tried to used quitte often in cheesy ways, and i NEVER saw a timer. It was always ready.
It also overlaps greatly with the normal grenade that can still be used. 40Mu will get you a long way.

Suggestion?
Maybe trying to remove the timer and overlap with the standard grenade. Making it more constant and more supportive and keeping a low price 10-15MU.

• Keeping the timer but a much lower one
  
• Lowering the damage by alot and increasing the stunning factor / throw a mix of concusion and explosives
  
• Making it activate after a succesfull salvage
  
• Give it a timer when you enter combat say, 5 seconds, after which the ability is disabled until the end of the combat.
  
  Mix and match, propose new stuff. Thanks MilkaCow for some of the suggestion. As he said, we could probably rework it to be less redundant with the normal potato masher.
  

I had this happens to me yesterday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kpxq1MxgB4

Are the infiltration grenades working as intended for squad whipe or near whipe? Shouldn't it cost more than 10 MU for that? And mixed with a volks spam, it's pretty cost efficient. The short fuse makes it pretty undodgable.

I was wondering the same myself.
I'm tired of squad wipes by that grenade.

I can agree with a munitions increase to 20 Munitions since the OKW have shed their 66% munitions income debuff.

I can agree with a munitions increase to 20 Munitions since the OKW have shed their 66% munitions income debuff.

I don't think the low cost had anything to do with the lower income. Because if you lower the price the lower income dosen't become a flaw anymore. Which means it was as it was before, just even more cost effective.

Edit: it means that it should be counted as a 10MU grenade for any faction, before the patch but also after.

It should have a cost increase definitely. But the animation takes longer than a standard grenade, which can also wipe full squads pretty regularly.

They are so easy to dodge :\ They are devastating if caught off guard. Perhaps the wind up time could be increased slightly to compensate for their damage output but even as it stands now you can see them coming from a mile away.

I don't see how a grenade with 0.6 fuse time and a super wide area of effect is considered easy to dodge. Especialy with a game that requires that amount of micro, i might be babysitting another squad while it's being pulled off or multi-tasking.

The numerous explosions also throw your guys in all directions, removing control of your squad for a while which means no dodging and NO DPS at all. Noticed how the PPSH totally stopped firing after the first grenade exploded?

Plus, while the damage seems low, you are usually over lapping grenades, which means you will probably take 40 damage multiple times per units over a wide area in contrary to Overkilling certain models with a normal grenade.

Hm, you forgot the distance from wich they can be thrown. The squad must be in almost melee to throw them. This is a downside and make them balanced. Oh, I see, you cannot melee charge "microless" with your ppsh units anymore and that doesn't like you. If the amo cost is increased, then the range should also be increased.

I don't see how a grenade with 0.6 fuse time and a super wide area of effect is considered easy to dodge. Especialy with a game that requires that amount of micro, i might be babysitting another squad while it's being pulled off or multi-tasking.

The numerous explosions also throw your guys in all directions, removing control of your squad for a while which means no dodging and NO DPS at all. Noticed how the PPSH totally stopped firing after the first grenade exploded?

Plus, while the damage seems low, you are usually over lapping grenades, which means you will probably take 40 damage multiple times per units over a wide area in contrary to Overkilling certain models with a normal grenade.

If you see a volks squad (long range unit) or an ober squad (long range unit) move into close range, you can expect a grenade volley. Close range units (Sturmpios, JLI) don't have access to the ability. The animation is more obvious than a normal grenade and even those are pretty easy to dodge.

Hm, you forgot the distance from wich they can be thrown. The squad must be in almost melee to throw them. This is a downside and make them balanced. Oh, I see, you cannot melee charge "microless" with your ppsh units anymore and that doesn't like you. If the amo cost is increased, then the range should also be increased.

I swear i bursted laughting reading your reply. Especialy the part where you started attacking me for using shock troops.

If you see a volks squad (long range unit) or an ober squad (long range unit) move into close range, you can expect a grenade volley. Close range units (Sturmpios, JLI) don't have access to the ability. The animation is longer than a normal grenade and even those are pretty easy to dodge.

I keep rewatching the video and i don't see how longer it takes to throw it or how short the range is. Compared to the molotov (paid upgrade and 15 MU) it's thrown pretty fast and in a much less obvious way. The deviation of grenades also seems to extend further, making it longer than it appears in that throw circle.
They could just wait for you to move in and use it as a defensive ability, negating a huge area.

I swear i bursted laughting reading your reply. Especialy the part where you started attacking me for using shock troops.

I didn't attack no one. And I don't understand what is the loughing about.

Shock troops take virtually no damage against volks. There is no reason that you should ever stop moving if you are aware of his doctrine choice. Bait the grenade volley, stay mobile, you will still out damage him on the move, and you have a grenade of your own.

Let me reiterate this, do not stop moving with your shock troops against volks with infiltration grenades, problem solved.

I don't think the low cost had anything to do with the lower income. Because if you lower the price the lower income dosen't become a flaw anymore. Which means it was as it was before, just even more cost effective.

Edit: it means that it should be counted as a 10MU grenade for any faction, before the patch but also after.

The low cost has always been linked two the two minute cooldown that only cools while you are out of combat. You have to be out of combat for two minutes between barrages.

It's a significant weakness as unless you are playing with 4-5 Volksgrenadier squads you will not have a barrage on demand most of the time.

I would advise you to study your own video. The animation is very obvious once you recognize it. I find this ability is easier to dodge than most grenades because:

• The range isn't great. It is hard to be surprised by the range. You can see in the video that his first attempt to use the ability actually cancels because of range.
  
• The animation is very easy to see. Watch the Volks squad. Every single member puts their guns away. When you see the whole squad "hunching over" with no rifles then you know it is coming. This long animation makes the attack quite slow.
  
• It is doctrinal so once you see it the first time you should start expecting him to use it more.
  

It is really strong still. I wrote I guide for Special Operations and I've sung the ability's praises there. Anything with this firepower for 10 munitions will be strong but the ability has weaknesses too.

I just went and tested the grenades myself, there is no extra delay before the first grenade is thrown, and when it explodes you loose total control of the squad inside the blast radius until all succecant grenades have exploded.

The throw distance is also the same as the normal grenade, only that with the high number of grenades thrown you have a good chance of having grenades thrown even further.

The fuse is really short and the blast radius, the numerus explosions will stun you for a long period of the time and the very wide AOE created all of those togeter makes it so far the hardest grenade to dodge i ever saw. I'd rather have rifle grenades being thrown at me for 10MU.

i had a 3 man squad throwing 3 grenades at 5 conscript and whiping the squad without even trying.

The new trend of Volks spam really makes it so yes we will see this happen often. The long cooldown is still nothing compared to the other played loosing a squad out of the blue and having to replace it.

edit: forgot to add the low price of 235 makes them easely spammable.

I just went and tested the grenades myself, there is no extra delay before the first grenade is thrown, and when it explodes you loose total control of the squad inside the blast radius until all succecant grenades have exploded.

The throw distance is also the same as the normal grenade, only that with the high number of grenades thrown you have a good chance of having grenades thrown even further.

The fuse is really short and the blast radius, the numerus explosions will stun you for a long period of the time and the very wide AOE created all of those togeter makes it so far the hardest grenade to dodge i ever saw. I'd rather have rifle grenades being thrown at me for 10MU.

i had a 3 man squad throwing 3 grenades at 5 conscript and whiping the squad without even trying.

The new trend of Volks spam really makes it so yes we will see this happen often. The long cooldown is still nothing compared to the other played loosing a squad out of the blue and having to replace it.

Try this: Play OKW in 1v1 exclusively using infiltration grenade doctrines to carry you to victory (I think you will find this harder than you anticipated). Eventually you will reach an ELO in which people will understand how to counter the ability, pay attention to what they do, and learn from it. You will be surprised at how much you can learn from playing the strategies that you struggle against.

This ability does not counter shocks against a competent opponent. Its not about reaction time, its about anticipating your opponents abilities before you even get into combat. Once you know his doctrine choice, you should keep in mind that the only reason volks will stay in range against shocks is if he is attempting to throw a grenade volley. You need to be aware of this. Like I said, keep your shocks on the move, don't just right click straight to the volks squad, this is lazy and predictable. Try to move laterally and bait the grenade volley, and keep in mind that you have a grenade of your own. Shocks have basically no reason to stay stationary against volks. If you are dying to infiltration grenades w/ your shocks your simply doing it wrong.

Special Ops doc is quite shitty, salvage is the one you need to fear.

Even at 20 mun, it would still be used as often as it can pay off.

Regarding your video, the OKW player did sacrifice a volks squad to kill your shocks. Have you kept moving, he would never have been able to get you and he would have sustain heavy casualties.

The ability is cheap, granted, but doctrinal and somewhat easy to dodge with core infantry. And as someone mentionned, closing in with long range infantry is a risky and predictable move.

I can agree with a munitions increase to 20 Munitions since the OKW have shed their 66% munitions income debuff.

*bumps head on desk*

Okw gets 100% ammo for a couple of patches.

The fact is, those grenades are by far to good for just 10 ammo.

*bumps head on desk*

Okw gets 100% ammo for a couple of patches.

The fact is, those grenades are by far to good for just 10 ammo.

Their value is not gated by the cost. It's gated by the role it plays in the commander tree, and the 2 minute out of combat cooldown.

I have personally not found the ability very useful in terms of damage. Often you risk losing a few guys closing the distance, so you're not always going to throw all five grenades. The grenades don't even seem very powerful compared to the single 30 munitions cost. I tried it once against a large blob with about two whole Volks squads, and it just killed one guy, and dinged the rest that were in range. Since it is multiple grenades you cannot anticipate exactly where they go, either.

Honestly I'd rather they get a stun grenade instead, those things use one grenade and stun everything nearby.

TBH I don't see how these grenades fit into an ability called "Infiltration". More like "Run right in guns blazing and blow that shit up!"