Finally a reason for Relic to Nerf that BS

Vindicare, does the aimed shot actually kill both Snipers?`And what is if they cloak? I also find it hard to get vet 1 with my puma if there are guards on the field. Also the FlakHT seems for me like a bad purchase against guards?

But you seem to be doing something right, so I hope you can enlighten me^^ Hopefully I catch your stream sometime.

If this is true then how is anyone winning as OKW? How did Hans beat omgpop who is the best USA player and also beat Pi in the tournament? If they are as weak as you cry about all the time, then they should not be able to be able to win games with but clearly people do.

It's true OKW does well vs USA and certain soviet strategies Soviets. However they absolutely fall apart vs the sniper spam + m3 into the guard spam as they just do not have any effect counters.

Issue with the kubel: The kubel should be the hard counter for snipers like the bike or the jeep was back in vcoh. However the Soviet player is able to produce a vehicle (the m3) in the same tier 1 tech structure which will absolutely murder the kubel.

Issue with the ratketenwerfer: The ratkenwerfer is too slow and immobile to be an effect counter to the M3. It takes too long to aim a shot and by the time it has done so the M3 with flamers inside it has already gotten behind it and started to burn the crew. Furthermore the crew is very likely to get sniped at anyway so it would be useless.

So what does that leave you with in the absolute early game to counter the sniper and m3, flamer combo? Nothing!

Issue with the flak-ht: Suppose you decide to stall at you're base and go for a fast flak-ht. This unit would be useless trying to chase down snipers and M3s as it needs to set up. Therefore it is only good for supporting you're defense.

Issue with the puma: Maybe instead you go for a puma which to be honest is you're only real option. Even then you're relying on a lucky shot to kill a sniper team and it's only effective before the guards come out. Once they are out it will become useless.

Issue with the lefh.18 arty gun: With the arty gun you get from Tier 2 you're basically relying on a lucky shot to bring you back into the game which is definitely not the right way about doing things.

Suggestions

There could be a number of ways that could possible help this situation.

The Sniper Solution: Either limit the number of snipers. Make soviet snipers 1 man team and perhaps remove the sprinting ability that soviet snipers get. Soviet players are currently not punished enough if they lose 1 man from their sniper team as it only cost 90 manpower to reinforce them. Therefore how about raising the cost reinforcement cost to 180 which is half that of the unit cost. This will mean that even if you as an axis player don't wipe the unit at-least you're inflicting major manpower bleed.

The M3 Solution: Make this unit more expensive to buy or drastically weaken it's dps vs armor to give the kubel a chance. The M3 in the past has seen quite a few nerfs to it's cost. However it's dps versus light armor was increased. Now that OKW exist the unit over-performs vs this faction as OKW haven't got a decent counter to it compared to the Ostheer who's grens have panzerfausts and a 222 can be called out fairly quickly. That being said maybe it could be a good idea to give volks a panzerfaust ability as well in order to deal with M3's and USA jeeps.

It's true OKW does well vs USA and certain soviet strategies Soviets. However they absolutely fall apart vs the sniper spam + m3 into the guard spam as they just do not have any effect counters.

Issue with the kubel: The kubel should be the hard counter for snipers like the bike or the jeep was back in vcoh. However the Soviet player is able to produce a vehicle (the m3) in the same tier 1 tech structure which will absolutely murder the kubel.

Issue with the ratketenwerfer: The ratkenwerfer is too slow and immobile to be an effect counter to the M3. It takes too long to aim a shot and by the time it has done so the M3 with flamers inside it has already gotten behind it and started to burn the crew. Furthermore the crew is very likely to get sniped at anyway so it would be useless.

So what does that leave you with in the absolute early game to counter the sniper and m3, flamer combo? Nothing!

Issue with the flak-ht: Suppose you decide to stall at you're base and go for a fast flak-ht. This unit would be useless trying to chase down snipers and M3s as it needs to set up. Therefore it is only good for supporting you're defense.

Issue with the puma: Maybe instead you go for a puma which to be honest is you're only real option. Even then you're relying on a lucky shot to kill a sniper team and it's only effective before the guards come out. Once they are out it will become useless.

Issue with the lefh.18 arty gun: With the arty gun you get from Tier 2 you're basically relying on a lucky shot to bring you back into the game which is definitely not the right way about doing things.

Suggestions

There could be a number of ways that could possible help this situation.

The Sniper Solution: Either limit the number of snipers. Make soviet snipers 1 man team and perhaps remove the sprinting ability that soviet snipers get. Soviet players are currently not punished enough if they lose 1 man from their sniper team as it only cost 90 manpower to reinforce them. Therefore how about raising the cost reinforcement cost to 180 which is half that of the unit cost. This will mean that even if you as an axis player don't wipe the unit at-least you're inflicting major manpower bleed.

The M3 Solution: Make this unit more expensive to buy or drastically weaken it's dps vs armor to give the kubel a chance. The M3 in the past has seen quite a few nerfs to it's cost. However it's dps versus light armor was increased. Now that OKW exist the unit over-performs vs this faction as OKW haven't got a decent counter to it compared to the Ostheer who's grens have panzerfausts and a 222 can be called out fairly quickly. That being said maybe it could be a good idea to give volks a panzerfaust ability as well in order to deal with M3's and USA jeeps.

Great feedback Hans.

Perhaps the Germans need an ability to kill the Soviet sniper squad with a bolt of lightning.

Perhaps the Germans need an ability to kill the Soviet sniper squad with a bolt of lightning.

Not funny at all.

It's true OKW does well vs USA and certain soviet strategies Soviets. However they absolutely fall apart vs the sniper spam + m3 into the guard spam as they just do not have any effect counters.

Issue with the kubel: The kubel should be the hard counter for snipers like the bike or the jeep was back in vcoh. However the Soviet player is able to produce a vehicle (the m3) in the same tier 1 tech structure which will absolutely murder the kubel.

Issue with the ratketenwerfer: The ratkenwerfer is too slow and immobile to be an effect counter to the M3. It takes too long to aim a shot and by the time it has done so the M3 with flamers inside it has already gotten behind it and started to burn the crew. Furthermore the crew is very likely to get sniped at anyway so it would be useless.

So what does that leave you with in the absolute early game to counter the sniper and m3, flamer combo? Nothing!

Issue with the flak-ht: Suppose you decide to stall at you're base and go for a fast flak-ht. This unit would be useless trying to chase down snipers and M3s as it needs to set up. Therefore it is only good for supporting you're defense.

Issue with the puma: Maybe instead you go for a puma which to be honest is you're only real option. Even then you're relying on a lucky shot to kill a sniper team and it's only effective before the guards come out. Once they are out it will become useless.

Issue with the lefh.18 arty gun: With the arty gun you get from Tier 2 you're basically relying on a lucky shot to bring you back into the game which is definitely not the right way about doing things.

Suggestions

There could be a number of ways that could possible help this situation.

The Sniper Solution: Either limit the number of snipers. Make soviet snipers 1 man team and perhaps remove the sprinting ability that soviet snipers get. Soviet players are currently not punished enough if they lose 1 man from their sniper team as it only cost 90 manpower to reinforce them. Therefore how about raising the cost reinforcement cost to 180 which is half that of the unit cost. This will mean that even if you as an axis player don't wipe the unit at-least you're inflicting major manpower bleed.

The M3 Solution: Make this unit more expensive to buy or drastically weaken it's dps vs armor to give the kubel a chance. The M3 in the past has seen quite a few nerfs to it's cost. However it's dps versus light armor was increased. Now that OKW exist the unit over-performs vs this faction as OKW haven't got a decent counter to it compared to the Ostheer who's grens have panzerfausts and a 222 can be called out fairly quickly. That being said maybe it could be a good idea to give volks a panzerfaust ability as well in order to deal with M3's and USA jeeps.

Reduce M3 DPS vs armor (to give kubel a chance) and make kubel more efficient vs snipers (as motorcycle in vCoh was). That way you won't need to change anything at soviets and you will eliminate the possibility to unbalance the soviets vs other factions (ostheer).

OR

Replace sdkfz AA in T3 with Panzer II Luchs from T4. Now that would be a nice one

I like the idea with the 1 limited sniper.
Hilarious is the Usain Bolt sprint ability

The German snipers bleeds 340 mp and veterancy.

Snipers are not really meant to fight each other, just like AT guns are not meant to fight each other.

Hard concept, I know.

Riflemen are not meant to fight Grenadiers, just like base buildings are not meant to fight base buildings.

Basically.

^See?

I told its hard concept to comprehend.

(also, OKW base buildings win against other buildings and if you rely on grenadiers to fight rifles instead of combining them with sniper or MG, yea, you're shooting yourself in the foot on your own demand)

Perhaps the Germans need an ability to kill the Soviet sniper squad with a bolt of lightning.

Vet 0 explosive round. Increase AoE a bit and increase hugginess of soviet snipers.

Has anyone thought about going the way of the Rear Echelon squad? That is, at Vet 2, they gain an extra man.

Make the Soviet sniper a 1-man team to start off with. Perhaps with Vet 2 or 3, they can get the extra man.

I shall henceforth demand that hugginess be a word.

@Katitof, you know what I wanted to say . A litte bit of [citation needed] and a little bit of the fact that sniper-sniper battles are in no way comparable to atgun-atgun battles because snipers can actually highly effectively hurt one another. Also ZiS is quite a decent anti-PaK weapon with barrage. But you knew that.

Snipers are not really meant to fight each other, just like AT guns are not meant to fight each other.

Hard concept, I know.

I don't know how often you replied to a soviet sniper nerf request, that it's soooo easy to counter sniper them with a German sniper since he cloaks faster than they can shoot. And now you say the german sniper is not designed to fight the soviet snipers.
Hypocrisy.

My opinion on that:

Don't nerf the soviet sniper stat wise, it should stay a valid strategy to get 2-3 or three squads. However nerf him indirectly by giving okw valid counters that fit the stone scissors paper design of the game, right out this combo just stays out of that.

I'd say the quickest and easiest solution would be to change the Luchs with the stuka while decreasing the hp of the luchs so that it dies with 2 at gun shots, just like the t-70.

- Double Toast

I've never said its easy.
I've said its possible.

Just because something is annoying/hard to fight doesn't always equal to it being op.

Its annoying for USF to fight german sniper for example because it bleeds them really fast and they have no counter for it, but I don't see forums exploding because of that.

Its time for Relic to wake up and at least remove sprint from soviet snipers. Srsly, 2 man sniper squad with sprint and cloak, they nearly untouchable by infantry and flanking rewards from little to nothing with exception of used sprint.

Also giving kubel decent dps on the move to make it somehow threatening to snipers will help.

Its annoying for USF to fight german sniper for example because it bleeds them really fast and they have no counter for it, but I don't see forums exploding because of that.

Because the M20, Dodge, Greyhound, AA track, Stuart can't be considered as counters.
Hell I once even chased a retreating sniper with a wolverine and quickly finished him off with the vehicle crew in his (empty) base.

But we shouldn't derail.

That is because they were never meant to.
Sov T1 is 100% AI tier, its supposed to be better then wehr T1 for AI duties as all you have is direct infantry counters, 0% AT, even soft one.

You've never killed a vehicle with a satchel charge?

Not to be relied upon of course, but with restricted mobility and/or luck it is possible

Kubelwagen should be a damdge vehicle not suppresion. to make it a hardcounter to snipers.