Comparison of Kat & Stuka after heavy usage

Or just Lend Lense fuel drop / Windustry

5 Kat by double Soviet in Semois is very viable.
You can't even pass the choke reaching the Kat blob.

Yeah i forgot to ask also which map. But since he said he killed 5 of them, i assume it was another map with flanking routes.
Since he said he control both fuels, it can´t be Semoisky (summer he should have pinned the enemy on his base and on winter on a similar degree).
We can also speculate and remove from this Minsk n maybe Karkhov.

Panzerwerfer Vet 1 and then u can go to start hunt Kats

Panzerwerfer Vet 1 and then u can go to start hunt Kats

Dream on.

Cannot replace fuel points, costing MP and providing less gas, as well as being very easily destructible late game. By your own admission you had total fuel dominance all game and inflicted heavy losses on the opposition (5 Kat is like 1500MP 500F!). Unless it was a 3v3/4v4, there's no way you should have lost to those odds if you hadn't thrown the game away.

The Katyusha is OP, yes. It does not, however, mean any Axis loss is due to them. They do not win games if they are being destroyed in such numbers. Unless, again, your opponents outplayed you and came back.

I play a good amount of Ostheer in 2v2. I owe some losses to Katyushas, yes. I also managed to beat them. It's tough, but very doable. They are very powerful, but they sure as hell aren't an excuse for every loss against Soviets. Especially in 1v1.

Replay. See for yourself:

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  CaldariSteel david_g1993

  Oz enigma

  Yet another Katyusha game.

  by: OZtheWiZARD map: Vaux Farmlands

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Basically it works like this: whenever there is an advance going on you drop barrage on that area. Rocket hitting the squad results in a squad wipe. You got 16 of these in one barrage.
Game was 2v2 obviously.

I don't think there is any reason belabouring the point much more - Katyushas and Stukas might be OP, but they are certainly overperforming in their current role compared to the werfer.

While homogenisation is bad, I think making the panzerwerfer and katyusha take an extra shell before instantly exploding is a good first step.

I then think a series of small nerfs:
- Reduce the damage of each katyusha rocket as barton has suggested
- Reduce the front loaded stuka damage a bit, and increase the damage done by the "burn" after a hit.

I feel like the panzerwerfer might need some changes, but lets not be hasty - these are probably easy enough small changes to start with.

The fact does remain however, that there needs to be a way to punish OKW players who camp out next to VP's with the.. frankly ridiculous T4 flak track.

I don't think there is any reason belabouring the point much more - Katyushas and Stukas might be OP, but they are certainly overperforming in their current role compared to the werfer.

While homogenisation is bad, I think making the panzerwerfer and katyusha take an extra shell before instantly exploding is a good first step.

I then think a series of small nerfs:
- Reduce the damage of each katyusha rocket as barton has suggested
- Reduce the front loaded stuka damage a bit, and increase the damage done by the "burn" after a hit.

I feel like the panzerwerfer might need some changes, but lets not be hasty - these are probably easy enough small changes to start with.

The fact does remain however, that there needs to be a way to punish OKW players who camp out next to VP's with the.. frankly ridiculous T4 flak track.

Agreed, camping with T4 flak right in the middle of the map should be punishable. Can we think of another way to punish it that won't also horribly punish everything else except tanks?


OKW players also shouldn't be punished for putting their forward HQ just outside their base. Katyushas can reach so damn far and wipe-wipe-wipe.


Cooldown is so fast, by the time you make it back to the field, you have to retreat again. And please note - with Stuka, you can dodge to the side, not retreat. With Katyusha, you cannot dodge because the attack area is a huge circle. You retreat or die. And often retreat AND die anyway :/


What I'd like to see:
1 - considerable damage decrease for both units
2 - cooldown to be the same for both units. Over a minute.
3 - damage modifier vs ambient buildings for katyusha rockets.

The fact does remain however, that there needs to be a way to punish OKW players who camp out next to VP's with the.. frankly ridiculous T4 flak track.

An AT gun, an Su85, or a Jackson will just melt the hit points of the thing while staying safely out of range. Medium tanks and up can easily slug it out from the front as well. If you prefer ranged warfare - you still have mortars, pack howies (not totally useless since last patch) and an abundance of onmap (Soviets) and offmap (US) artillery. There is also smoke - two riflesquads can alternate smoke on the T4 truck while you cap under its nose.

120 damage Katyusha would still oneshot the Flak HT and deal massive damage to the other OKW trucks (1920 dmg vs 2000 HP). Even if you cannot reliably fire from a position where all shots will hit, 2 of them should be able to instakill all trucks or one + a tank.

120 damage doesn't solve the problem, it just slightly decreases ist.

In regard to the flak building - it's very dangerous for infantry and most of the longer range units can't shoot because of los. Something has to provide los to hit with range. SU-85 can, but AT gun and Jackson (not sure if it has sight booster) can't. Plus you have to sit there for 2 minutes slamming it shell after shell. It's very durable for being a truck.

I don't remember panzerwerfer being 160 damage. I'm pretty sure kat was 80 damage and werfer was 120. Werfer is not going to see much difference though, since 120 is already enough for it destroy infantry in it's circle.

I still don't think the kat performance on infantry is out of place. When I used it at 80 damage it was a little less beastly, but I think the AOE is really what's causing the wipes. My concern is really for light vehicles and ambient buildings. With precision strike I can destroy any light vehicle that doesn't know to move. I don't know if relic wants it like that, but previously it would leave about 5-10% health when the rockets did 80. Ambient buildings are really a concern though. The buildings are dropping within the first 4 rockets. The reaction required to escape the building collapse is faster than a human can react. Where previously the 80 damage rockets would bring the building down, but not so fast and sometimes it would take 2 barrages. I suspect this might also have to do with AOE and not the 160 damage. The total damage output of 80 damage rockets was already pretty high at 1,280. So, it should have been enough to drop most buildings if it hit right.

I really can't sympathize with a lot of the doomsday whining though. This is an end-game tool and it's not really that cheap. If you have a good command of the map, your enemy can't realistically build them. Lone kats without suppport are easy hits for light vehicles. Having a retreat point close to the enemy has to have a downside and your going to stay in range of arty. ML-20 is going to wipe your infantry too, it hits for 300 damage. It seems like a lot of you have a preconceived notion as to how you can be defeated to accept defeat in a graceful manner. I'm sure the rocket artillery will get nerfed, I'm hoping they try 120/5, which I think would have been a better step if they wanted kat to be more effective. I think a lot of the cries have to do with it taking a while for people playing Sov to realize how vulnerable OKW is especially vulnerable, even though we have all dealt with British using arty, among other things.

The general lack of OKW off-map and on-map arty (sometimes players don't want to spend fuel on stuka, howitzer's don't require fuel) compared to OST and having a retreat point within enemy arty range gives purpose to not just kat, but ML-20 too. I think the same can be said for OST fighting Americans as well, as the LeF has also seen a huge decline in use.

120 damage Katyusha would still oneshot the Flak HT and deal massive damage to the other OKW trucks (1920 dmg vs 2000 HP). Even if you cannot reliably fire from a position where all shots will hit, 2 of them should be able to instakill all trucks or one + a tank.

120 damage doesn't solve the problem, it just slightly decreases ist.

And? What is wrong with a 132mm ROCKET doing damage to unarmored trucks and vehicles???

The fact does remain however, that there needs to be a way to punish OKW players who camp out next to VP's with the.. frankly ridiculous T4 flak track

yeah. but this thing punishes any okw player... like i said 1-2 kats can take out any truck... they do not get more resilient if you put them in your base sector, you know?

^ You dunno what is attack ground? You don't need LOS.

And? What is wrong with a 132mm ROCKET doing damage to unarmored trucks and vehicles???

balance > realism

its to easy right now as soviet to obliterate okws tech, even if placed in the base sector

attack ground is not as effective as having los

And? What is wrong with a 132mm ROCKET doing damage to unarmored trucks and vehicles???

Also, what is wrong a Tiger 88mm gun having 1500m effective range? None, I say. Because fuck balance.

Burts wrote: "What is wrong with Rockets damaging buildings!?!?!"

Also, what is wrong a Tiger 88mm gun having 1500m effective range? None, I say. Because fuck balance.

lol, nice reply


The point, Burts, is not that it damages them but that it wipes them out quickly, with ease from a long way away.


The answer quoted above points out that everying in the CoH2 world is reduced and softened to enable fun gameplay. If every tank could shoot clear acros the map, it wouldn't be as fun I'm sure. Remember Ele/ISU?



So, they should do damage, yes, noone is saying they shouldn't. But they're saying that they should do less.

Agreed, camping with T4 flak right in the middle of the map should be punishable. Can we think of another way to punish it that won't also horribly punish everything else except tanks?


OKW players also shouldn't be punished for putting their forward HQ just outside their base. Katyushas can reach so damn far and wipe-wipe-wipe.


Cooldown is so fast, by the time you make it back to the field, you have to retreat again. And please note - with Stuka, you can dodge to the side, not retreat. With Katyusha, you cannot dodge because the attack area is a huge circle. You retreat or die. And often retreat AND die anyway :/


What I'd like to see:
1 - considerable damage decrease for both units
2 - cooldown to be the same for both units. Over a minute.
3 - damage modifier vs ambient buildings for katyusha rockets.

I totally aggree with that. The problem is that the gamplay OKW is wrong. Relic wanted to make the OKW as Brits in TOW, but without the ability to take the points and weak structures. The consequence is that the majority of players play OKW as other races can not reap the benefits of the sWS gameplay. Its a fucking nonsens.

^^^ I totally agree.

Everyone seemed to hate british in COH1 because of their trucks and emplacements, but OKW gets a truck and bofors emplacement/medic truck combined into one and nobody says anything?

It's just stupid design. Dealing with that flak truck is almost impossible. Nothing can sight for your AT gun, it destroys light tanks and infantry.

I can't blame anyone for artillerying that shit to death. There's no other viable solutions except losing.

I firmly believe all the rocket artillery is too much in this game, however, Relic has introduced a German COH1 British faction hybrid (and it's much more powerful) that just baffles me. I don't blame people for doing what they need to do when they are given the tools to do it.

^^^ I totally agree.

Everyone seemed to hate british in COH1 because of their trucks and emplacements, but OKW gets a truck and bofors emplacement/medic truck combined into one and nobody says anything?

It's just stupid design. Dealing with that flak truck is almost impossible. Nothing can sight for your AT gun, it destroys light tanks and infantry.

I can't blame anyone for artillerying that shit to death. There's no other viable solutions except losing.

I firmly believe all the rocket artillery is too much in this game, however, Relic has introduced a German COH1 British faction hybrid (and it's much more powerful) that just baffles me. I don't blame people for doing what they need to do when they are given the tools to do it.

i can kill flak trucks with stuarts. they are easily taken out.maybe try attacking from the rear where the turret has to traverse to kill you?

newest patch changes:

Katyusha

These changes will retain the Katyusha’s current lethality versus infantry, increase its performance versus vehicles, and lower its performance vs. buildings. The delay in pay-load delivery provides the Katyusha with the ability to deny an area for short periods of time, while its long range and precision fire ability allow it to annihilate high priority units on the battle field.

-Ability recharge time from 70 to 110 seconds
-Far AOE damage from 4 to 8
-Damage from 160 to 80
-Deflected shots now deal 20 damage

Panzerwerfer

In contrast to the Katyusha, the Panzerwerfer trades range and area denial for damage concentration. This increased rocket saturation increases its barrage lethality, while its counter barrage ability punishes nearby artillery. Given the Panzerwerfer has a slightly higher tech cost, we have enabled it to fire its barrage more frequently.

-Ability recharge time from 70 to 100 seconds
-Far AOE damage from 4 to 8
-Deflected shots now deal 20 damage