US faction too effective?

That's the feeling I get when playing against US. I might be wrong but I don't think I am. Obviously I'm not a pro player so I would like to know their opinion as well in this topic.

Anyway my general concern is that US as a whole is a faction that over performs in general. Rifles, while expensive, are too strong early game and they scale really well into late one plus they can adapt to every situation becoming very good AI units or decent AT squads. Also in latter stage of the game their dps allows them to simply walk into any kind of HMG and overwhelm it using sheer firepower.
They get a free unit every time they tech up.

US army got a bunch of light vehicles to support it's infantry giving them very strong mid game. Infamous AA truck being one of the examples although recently tone down is still very good vehicle.

Transition into late game allows them to utilize very effective and very cheap medium tanks.
Easy 8 being simply the best medium tank in the game being in the same time ridiculously cheap can almost go toe in toe with Panther. It won't take it down by itself of course but with support that's doable. If we compare the cost of both of these units (E8 and PzV) and their performance Panther gets out shadow quite significantly. E8 being call in tank will save US player teching cost what results in economy advantage allowing to save fuel for the second Sherman in a short period of time. Usually there are 2 of these when first Panther comes out.

Regular Sherman while not as effective still can be produced in great numbers and its ability to switch between AI and At rounds allows it to be quite effective all around tank. Not to the degree of E8 but that is reflected in its cost.

Finally M36, while greatly underestimated it is the best tank destroyer in the game right now. It's very mobile and delivers devastating punch of 240 damage backed up with good penetration. It is very fragile but its range allows to use hit and run tactics. Luckily for German players majority of Us users can't utilize its full potential. Jackson is also very cheap. 1226 fuel if I am not mistaken.

All this is backed up with range of howitzers, AT guns and mobile artillery.

Thinking about it it's really hard to see any major weakness with US army atm. If you consider German counterpart OKW it's limited in terms of fuel income and Wermaht is the weakest faction crippled by its over priced tech system. One could argue that US is not that strong in the late game but I don't think that's the case. Especially when you consider top level players.

Any comments?

USF is definitely over-performing, pretty sure Relic is aware of this. However I'd say Ostheer is the strongest faction, at least in 1v1.

Ost > USF > Sov > OKW currently in 1v1.

Allies >>>>>>>>>> Axis in team games as of the time of posting this.

I play mostly as US and consistently lose to Jesulin, Ginnungagap, VindicareX, Cataclaw, Luvnest, Para, Jove, the list goes on. So it follows that if you're sufficiently skilled, you will win.

If the US is overperforming, it's not by much in my opinion.

when skill is equal allies have the advantage

Totally agree with this post. I often find myself losing to people of lessor skill just because USF is alot easier. Riflemen cover all bases and overperform.

Hopefully this will be fixed when they tweak LMG's as i think this is the main reason. Riflemen with dbl Zookas are ok.

Call in's are and always have been too big a part of meta. It has been talked about for many many months now that there should be teching costs for call ins and i really wish Relic would implement this.

Also i think USF should have their teching costs adjusted with the infantry not given for free but available to buy.

I never know what to think about the US force's strengths.

Riflemen always feel like they over-perform but that's a core strength of the US forces. They're supposed to over-perform. By design their strengths are supposed to lift the rest of the army up.

I don't really like the way you assess the army in your original post though.

Riflemen are only really good anti-infantry with .30 Caliber LMGs. That requires you to go Infantry Company which locks you out of 'Easy Eights'. BARs are good but don't fully even the odds against elite anti-infantry squads. Personally I think .30 Cal LMGs are too good or at least defensive stance is too good. You give up alot by going Infantry though as I said.

I think the 'Easy Eight' comparison is a little overblown. The Easy Eight is better than the Panther? I don't disagree really when you take the economic realities of the two units.

That being said you're basing your argument on support for these two tanks as well. Germans have better anti-armor support units than the US for the most part. Volksgrenadiers with Panzerschrecks are more accessible and valuable than Riflemen with Bazookas.

For my own curiousity I will show the penetration differences with numbers. I'll just use the average (medium range) penetration for simplicity although the long range penetration is probably more realistic for the AT guns.

Keep in mind that the 'Easy Eight' is the most armored unit in the arsenal of the US forces. It's all downhill from it.

Pak40 vs EE = 93% chance to penetrate
Rak43 vs EE = 88% chance to penetrate
Panzerschreck vs EE = 79% chance to penetrate

Pretty good odds. For the US against the Panther:

57mm vs Panther = 43% chance to penetrate. (I don't know how the "AP rounds" ability works. I've heard 50% more penetration which would be 64.5%?)
Bazooka vs Panther = 41% chance to penetrate.

Keep in mind that the Bazooka does 66% of the damage that the Panzerschreck does as well. You should also keep in mind that the Pak40 and Raketen43 have 33% more base accuracy over the 57mm.

The target size of the 'Easy Eight' and the Panther is 23 vs 24 (way smaller difference than I expected!) respectively so this is a pretty huge boon for the Panther. Bigger targets get automatically hit more.

You can see that the two have very different support weapons available to them on the two sides. While the 'Easy Eight' can draw upon it's support weapons to turn a battle between the two the Axis can do so much easier with greater reliability. The other strength that the 'Easy Eight' has it something all call-ins have. Wehrmacht players crush faces with Tiger Tanks. Soviets have long done it with their call-ins. It's just an issue with call-in tanks.

To return to the greater point though they're maybe a little too strong here and there? I think Riflemen are always going to feel really strong in the same way that a Tiger should always feel really strong. It's just a strength of the side.

I have to agree with most here. The differences are overblown. My personal opinion, which is hard to rationalize, is that US are slightly overpowered. It's not much though really. Map advantage or tactics will overcome this strength in my opinion.

One of the things they really have going for them is an arsenal of really strong units. There's no un-usable unit. There's no.. SU-76. There's no... Brummbar. There's no... 251/17 Flak Halftrack.

Having no dead-weight units give them great flexibility. Even calling these three "dead weight" units is harsh but there are factors that hurt them.

The closest thing the US have to a dead-weight unit is probably the M20 Utility Car and M15 which are being edged out by a Puma metagame that punishes them harshly. Both units are still really strong though.

tl;dr: Yes, sortof, they're probably a little strong but it's nothing you can't overcome and honestly the map, tactics and game-mode will have a far greater impact.

Mostly what I'd say has been said.

Yeah, I don't think they're over performing by much, but they are. Yes, riflemen are supposed to be good, better than the rest -- they just are by a bit too much.

One thing though. I wouldn't call the Puma an M15 hardcounter, or not really even a counter. I've seen the M15 take down a puma going to hunt it down on a number of times.

I would argue ever since OKW got a massive buff they are right up there with the best factions.

Mobile version glitched out on me, ignore.

A bit too strong in 1v1, pretty weak in 2v2 unless you have Soviet as the second player to provide late game staying power (or so I'm told, my AT partner is also USF). Early game is very good, lategame is very poor, unless you have the Easy 8, in which case late-game is "ok". In team games late game occurs way more often, ergo the imbalance between solo strength and team game weakness.

One of the things they really have going for them is an arsenal of really strong units. There's no un-usable unit. There's no.. SU-76. There's no... Brummbar. There's no... 251/17 Flak Halftrack.

Having no dead-weight units give them great flexibility. Even calling these three "dead weight" units is harsh but there are factors that hurt them.

I consider the Pack Howitzer to be dead weight. We tried it post-buff in the last patch but it still hardly seems to scratch anything. It is really ineffective consdiering it's cost!

I would argue ever since OKW got a massive buff they are right up there with the best factions.

That's really unlikely.

It's probably the worst faction right now. Not by much, but for 1v1, it needs some attention.

OKW is probably about as UP as US is OP. Again, not by much.

A bit too strong in 1v1, pretty weak in 2v2 unless you have Soviet as the second player to provide late game staying power (or so I'm told, my AT partner is also USF). Early game is very good, lategame is very poor, unless you have the Easy 8, in which case late-game is "ok". In team games late game occurs way more often, ergo the imbalance between solo strength and team game weakness.




I consider the Pack Howitzer to be dead weight. We tried it post-buff in the last patch but it still hardly seems to scratch anything. It is really ineffective consdiering it's cost!

I use a Pack Howitzer almost every US team game I play.

It works fine? I dunno. I guess it is border case. It straddles that border between "useless" and "good". I think it's probably on the side of "good" looking over at "useless" though. Maybe it should stop leaning out though...

To throw some numbers around, here are my feeling on the matchups:

US 4.9-5.1 OKW
Pumas are very strong against almost everything, so are MG34s and elite infantry

US 6-4 Wehrmacht
1919s (and infantry in general) overperform, Wehrmacht can only sit comfortably if they got tanks

Soviets 6.5- 4.5 OKW
Soviets are easier to play, i would never win if i would play against myself

Soviets 5-5 Wehrmacht
Haven't played that in a while, but it was quite even back then


In 2v2+ i would give a combined allied team the edge, particular due to the new Katjusha.

when skill is equal allies have the advantage

Exactly.

I use a Pack Howitzer almost every US team game I play.

It works fine? I dunno. I guess it is border case. It straddles that border between "useless" and "good". I think it's probably on the side of "good" looking over at "useless" though. Maybe it should stop leaning out though...

the high price of the pack howitzer make it inflexible for most US builds. the one map where the Pack howitzer is good is probably crossing in the wood as a 2v2.

the barrage ability give the pack howitzer extra range but it only fire three shells and have a relatively long recharge.

the auto-fire have 80m range, same as the 81mm. However the pack howitzer is significantly less mobile and can't GTFO as easily as the mortar.

The LeIG have longer range that let it stay out of danger more easily, while its gun shield provide protection. The 2 extra men on the pack do not make up for the lack of gun shield, because once the gunner start dying the gun is essentially stun locked.

First question: what is the equal skill ? is there something like that possible ? maybe when you are playing twin brother...
Second question: where are replays ?

To be honest, i don't really think US is overperforming as a whole, it's just that some german units are borderline useless. T4 for ostheer is completely innacesible. Brummbar is okay, pwerfer is batshit OP ( it also got a big buff), however, the panther is a total letdown. It's not really good at all.


As OKW, a panther isint a good idea at all. It's better to just simply spam pumas (which in my opinion are somewhat too good). Puma puma puma puma.



However Sov vs Ostheer is balanced very well (might soon be completely unbalanced due to relic implementing 4 man weapon teams WTF relic)

[...]
I think the 'Easy Eight' comparison is a little overblown. The Easy Eight is better than the Panther? I don't disagree really when you take the economic realities of the two units.
[...]

I think you got me wrong. I never said E8 is better than Panther but it can do some damage to it. This got a lot to do with Panther being too expensive in what it does and E8 being too cheap so you can have 2 E8 when OKW will get his Panther out.
E8 costs roughly the same amount as OH PzIV but it over performs it by quite a margin. I don't consider Wermaht Panther as currently no one sane would go for one.

USF is definitely over-performing, pretty sure Relic is aware of this. However I'd say Ostheer is the strongest faction, at least in 1v1.

Ost > USF > Sov > OKW currently in 1v1.

Allies >>>>>>>>>> Axis in team games as of the time of posting this.

I'm really struggling with ost vs US in 1v1 as even vanilla rifles tear up grens at range in cover or whatever. On any map without clear sight lines for mg's ( which die to smoke assisted flanks and grenades) I'm quickly left with no map presence and often no units . Built up maps are worst because of garrison abuse- any tips?

I'm really struggling with ost vs US in 1v1 as even vanilla rifles tear up grens at range in cover or whatever. On any map without clear sight lines for mg's ( which die to smoke assisted flanks and grenades) I'm quickly left with no map presence and often no units . Built up maps are worst because of garrison abuse- any tips?

I got some success against US when I used doctrine with Assault Grenadiers and StugE.