Explain Again how Elite Troops is not OP?

You get a vet 3 grenadier squad early game at the cost of precious fuel. But as long as you don't make a mistake you will push your opponent back and cut their fuel so the ability pretty much pays for itself in the sense that you will get more fuel and cut fuel that you would otherwise be facing.

You get some of the most useful bulletins for the mid game. Which isn't OP in of itself but it is the same situation that you see in Starcraft where Zerg dominated the ladder below diamond league since their faction's macro is pretty easy to master. They can tech switch incredibly easily. Same with elite troops where you get nice perks to help out both your infantry and vehicles where other commanders make you choose one or the other. So the overall strategy is obviously more flexible than other commanders.

And then comes the Tiger Ace. I can't say much that hasn't already been said so here it goes. The argument I keep hearing for Elite troops not being OP is the loss of resource income afterwards. This does not address the fact that it is a unit that is OP for its initial cost. If you have two players of the same skill and then one suddenly gets an amazing unit for an easy to reach cost then it is game over, they will likely get rolled. Despite every argument for Elite Troops I have seen this fact remains.

I have 400 hours on this game and it is a lot of fun but this commander just pisses me off. The balance with the new factions is impressive. I will gladly go against insanely powerful Obersoldaten all day rather than get a Tiger Ace rolling over everything. Even the King Tiger isn't that bad since the Oberkommando has to wreck his economy beforehand and his map presence leading up to that tank reflects such a strategy so you essentially scout it by not seeing vehicles.

I am sure someone has already made a post about this (It is all over the other coh website) but I can't find it so if you want redirect me to it and I will whine there. Yes I made this after a 3v3 where we destroyed 4 pz4's, 2 panthers, and then moved forward to exploit the weakness like anyone playing a strategy game would do only to find out that they immediately called out a Tiger Ace and there wasn't actually a weakness at all because it is a game breaking unit! Out of position since we weren't expecting such bullshit I lost two Shermans immediately and then spiraled downhill.

What if Elite Troops is the next commander rotation commander?

I'll add that I have yet to lose using Elite Troops myself. I have definitely beaten better players with it. Like T-34s destroying my base and then call in Tiger Ace and win easily. I can't use the commander myself anymore even though I paid for it since it makes me feel dirty doing that to other people.

What if Elite Troops is the next commander rotation commander?

I would just have to play Red Orchestra 2 for that week. Although giving it to everyone would make it better in a way.

You are a few patches late for that. The Tiger Ace doesn't have twice the health and damage of the normal Tiger anymore. For the horrendous upkeep you get a better rate of fire, range and more abilities, but it dies as fast as a regular Tiger.

By the time it comes, you should be prepared for that. Overall, it's fairly balanced.

You get a vet 3 grenadier squad early game at the cost of precious fuel.

You basically answered that for yourself.

You get some of the most useful bulletins for the mid game.

Bulletins? Don't overvalue bulletins.

You are a few patches late for that. The Tiger Ace doesn't have twice the health and damage of the normal Tiger anymore. For the horrendous upkeep you get a better rate of fire, range and more abilities, but it dies as fast as a regular Tiger.

By the time it comes, you should be prepared for that. Overall, it's fairly balanced.


You basically answered that for yourself.


Bulletins? Don't overvalue bulletins.

I meant perks or whatever, G43s, smoke, stun nades.

You didn't address my point that the vet is guaranteed map control. I didn't answer it myself that was my introduction where I acknowledged the intention is that the cost is to slow teching but teching isn't actually slowed much since map control is almost guaranteed.

For the upkeep, you are still getting an extremely strong unit at a low initial cost and no build time. I still don't see how it doesn't have a boulder that breaks the camel's back effect in an evenly matched game, which directly correlates to a high bullshit rating. It isn't hard to smash enemy tanks with the Tiger Ace and tanks you undoubtedly had before since you didn't have to worry about saving fuel for the Tiger Ace. Then the Allied player loses mobility of AT because of the fuel deficit which at an equal skill level is a GG.

But I didn't know health and damage were fixed. It is hard to tell when that accurate and quickly firing gun one shots amer at guns and anything else trying to get close.

Veteran Troops doesn't necessarily guarantee anything though.

Investing into a singular unit is potentially rewarding but you are taking a significant risk.

Let's say I am playing Soviets. I quite like Tier 1 Soviet play. I see you go for Vet 3 Grenadiers.

These elite grens will probably cause some issues for my first Conscript squad but then my M3A1 will roll out. A vet 3 grenadier's Panzerfaust is no better than a vet 0 to my knowledge. I will stall your forces for a little while and then I will get a flamethrower. All of that veterancy means nothing to the flamethrower or explosives. Shortly after a sniper will hit the field. Suddenly I have a very high priority target to pick on that actually give me more experience per sniper shot! I can turn your investment against you one bullet at a time.

All the while you have slowed down your personal tech. I don't have to worry about a 222 scout car nearly as fast. My Guards/AT grenades will absolutely be ready when they come. Each time you use the ability you slow your tech down. A vet 3 grenadier means little to a T-70 light tank or an M15 AA Half-track.

All units have weaknesses. A vet 3 MG against a sniper, smoke grenade, or flanking troops is a wasted investment. A vet 3 grenadier still loses to Riflemen who have better cover at a better range or a maxim that suppresses it and ends the fight immediately. A vet 3 Mortar is pretty solid but cannot hold a line itself.

A good player won't lose his fuel to a single veteran infantry. If you make multiple then all I need is a higher tech counter.

If the enemy understands the inherent weaknesses of each unit then they can exploit the fact that you've invested into a singular troop.

The Ace is kind of crazy good. 90% reduced fuel income generally means if you beat the Ace you win the game though. Once again it's an all-in style tactic. I just have to play things carefully. One good mine and the right tech means your game-plan goes down in smoke.

It's a decent doctrine but I don't think it's crazy overpowered. In fairness I don't own it. I've fought it many times though.

How many games have you done as the doctrine out of curiosity?

Troop Training: Cost a lot of fuel that would have went into teching, needs to do a lot out of that vet 3 gren for it to be worthwhile.

Model 24 Stun Grenades: Its fine.

Panzer Tactician: Its fine.

Jaeger Light Infantry Upgrade: G43 are a cheap side grade to the LMG42.

Tiger Ace: Risky but powerful, fight it like a tiger...

If you think this doctrine is still overpowered or pay 2 win, ur stuck in the past, sorry

Tiger ace will be fair when it finally cost fuel

Veteran Troops doesn't necessarily guarantee anything though.

Investing into a singular unit is potentially rewarding but you are taking a significant risk.

Let's say I am playing Soviets. I quite like Tier 1 Soviet play. I see you go for Vet 3 Grenadiers.

These elite grens will probably cause some issues for my first Conscript squad but then my M3A1 will roll out. I will stall your forces for a little while and then I will get a flamethrower. All of that veterancy means nothing to the flamethrower or explosives. Shortly after a sniper will hit the field. Suddenly I have a very high priority target to pick on that actually give me more experience per sniper shot! I can turn your investment against you one bullet at a time.


How many games have you done as the doctrine out of curiosity?

I figured someone would bring up just assassinate the vet grens. Problem with that is your opponent will know that you will try to do that and make you pay dearly for it. Same advantage for using a soviet sniper. You know they will eventually yolo charge it with a scout car so put mines or an at gun trap and then let them get a glimpse of the forbidden fruit and they will lose a lot of manpower trying to get it. Or they will have some unit hiding in ambush but that is one less squad out there capping stuff so advantage to you again. Same goes for the vet gren squad comrade.

M15 AA half-track definitely has a nerf coming its way so I don't use it much. T-70s are pretty easy to counter with fausts and a quick pak gun which I always get since I spam infantry and want a vet pak gun for a stun shot for armor later.

"A good player won't lose his fuel to a single veteran infantry"

How can you not? Remember I said this is a match between even skilled players. They have the same amount of manpower on the field but a gren squad is vet 3 already.

We are all capable of slick play but when a commander choice necessitates that you pull some slick stuff or you lose then that is silly. The immediate unavoidable disadvantage this commander causes is what gets to me.

Going back to the flame car you say you use yes I think that would be the best way to deal with it but those scout cars go down pretty easily. This is also assuming you led with that stuff. If you don't by the time you scout a vet 3 gren squad then you are at a disadvantage for the first battle for map control.

"How many games have you done as the doctrine out of curiosity?"

I admit only a few but the ones I did were pretty damn easy to the point where I could never do it again without feeling like a scumbag. I like outplaying people and calling out the Tiger Ace is certainly not that.

"The Ace is kind of crazy good. 90% reduced fuel income generally means if you beat the Ace you win the game though."

Yes, my issue is with the if you beat it. It is like playing chess and getting another queen on the board when your opponent is least ready for it at the cost of your two knights.

Not only that it makes for boring games. No more splitting your forces around the map trying to work towards some grand strategy. It becomes a WoW boss fight where they throw everything at and rng is either with them or against them. I'm probably being a little difficult but it is hard for me to see it as anything but that.

Best way to use it is to save your fuel. Spam as many tanks as you can. The moment you have the CPs for a Tiger Ace then call it in. You now have a MASSIVE Fuel Advantage over your opponent. And the TA is better than a KT imho (TWP, Faster, Better ROF, Great Site Range).

And the punishment is AFTER you get it. Its like saying HEY OKW you dont get a fuel penalty until AFTER we give you a fuel free KT!

Yeah its stupid. It needs a fuel cost.

Troop Training: Cost a lot of fuel that would have went into teching, needs to do a lot out of that vet 3 gren for it to be worthwhile.

Model 24 Stun Grenades: Its fine.

Panzer Tactician: Its fine.

Jaeger Light Infantry Upgrade: G43 are a cheap side grade to the LMG42.

Tiger Ace: Risky but powerful, fight it like a tiger...

If you think this doctrine is still overpowered or pay 2 win, ur stuck in the past, sorry

"Tiger Ace: Risky but powerful, fight it like a tiger..."

The only point of mine you addressed is what I said about troop training so we'll go with that. Yes you need to get a lot out of the Vet 3 grens. Not exactly hard to do.

Troop training is usually a waste very early game. Wait until your first tank, train that up so it can face stomp other tanks and wait for your fuel-free Super Tiger whilst making sure all your important units (PaK, Mortars, MG's) are vetted to the sky with excess fuel.

For bonus points, play with an OKW ally and vet their units up for extra hilarious results. After all- you have no more need for that fuel, your Tiger ace won't cost you any! Enjoy 10 troop training uses that any normal Ost player would have to forego to get their tiger.

Troop training is usually a waste very early game. Wait until your first tank, train that up so it can face stomp other tanks and wait for your fuel-free Super Tiger whilst making sure all your important units (PaK, Mortars, MG's) are vetted to the sky with excess fuel.

For bonus points, play with an OKW ally and vet their units up for extra hilarious results. After all- you have no more need for that fuel, your Tiger ace won't cost you any! Enjoy 10 troop training uses that any normal Ost player would have to forego to get their tiger.

Doesn't matter how much vet you can give to OKW, a dirt cheap Katyusha can just wipe out whole army by a click.

Best way to use it is to save your fuel. Spam as many tanks as you can. The moment you have the CPs for a Tiger Ace then call it in. You now have a MASSIVE Fuel Advantage over your opponent. And the TA is better than a KT imho (TWP, Faster, Better ROF, Great Site Range).

And the punishment is AFTER you get it. Its like saying HEY OKW you dont get a fuel penalty until AFTER we give you a fuel free KT!

Yeah its stupid. It needs a fuel cost.

Thats how i always felt and still feel. Pump out as many tanks as you can, use your fuel and then get a super tank for immediate fuel cost. And even if you lose your Tiger Ace it doesnt mean the game is lost, you get normal resources again and can continue to fight the enemy.

So no one else seems to agree with me that troop training breaks the immediate early game with vet 3 grens. I'm sorry. Maybe I have a problem against it since I only do cons spam since I've always considered it the safest Soviet opener. I'll just spam maxims I guess

Still haven't heard a good case for the current Tiger Ace situation though.

^You don't have to 'spam' maxims, but one in the mix or even two and breaking up into Con + Maxim forces will probably go a long way.

I figured someone would bring up just assassinate the vet grens. Problem with that is your opponent will know that you will try to do that and make you pay dearly for it. Same advantage for using a soviet sniper. You know they will eventually yolo charge it with a scout car so put mines or an at gun trap and then let them get a glimpse of the forbidden fruit and they will lose a lot of manpower trying to get it. Or they will have some unit hiding in ambush but that is one less squad out there capping stuff so advantage to you again. Same goes for the vet gren squad comrade.

M15 AA half-track definitely has a nerf coming its way so I don't use it much. T-70s are pretty easy to counter with fausts and a quick pak gun which I always get since I spam infantry and want a vet pak gun for a stun shot for armor later.

"A good player won't lose his fuel to a single veteran infantry"

How can you not? Remember I said this is a match between even skilled players. They have the same amount of manpower on the field but a gren squad is vet 3 already.

We are all capable of slick play but when a commander choice necessitates that you pull some slick stuff or you lose then that is silly. The immediate unavoidable disadvantage this commander causes is what gets to me.

Going back to the flame car you say you use yes I think that would be the best way to deal with it but those scout cars go down pretty easily. This is also assuming you led with that stuff. If you don't by the time you scout a vet 3 gren squad then you are at a disadvantage for the first battle for map control.

Mmm.

You said originally that Troop Training is good because it lets you play aggressively and just push the enemy off the map. The fuel disadvantage isn't a disadvantage if you "just take their fuel". That's what I took from your original point.

You can't play aggressively and defensively at the same time. Luring M3A1s and Snipers into traps and pulling back is inconsistent with holding more than your share of the map.

AT guns and munitions for mines take way longer to hit the field than most reasonable counters to elite infantry anyways. AT guns are actually delayed an additional 25 fuel due to your training opening anyways.

If I deploy the counters and take my half of the map then I'm just ahead in fuel basically. I don't have to play aggressively against elite troops. It's the opposite of what you want to do. Elite Troops is always behind if they use Troop Training. They're the ones who are supposed to have the incredible early game. If I just stall into my superior and faster mid-game then I can just turn the game on it's head pretty quick.

I don't want to get into some sort of theory-crafting war but I will say that everytime I see a vet 3 unit in the first minute I am a-okay with that because that player will be behind the rest of the game for little gain.

edit: Basically, I just completely contend that "Vet 3 Tier 1 Ostheer Units Guarantee Map Control". It's not guaranteed at all against an even opponent.

If you have two players of the same skill and then one suddenly gets an amazing unit for an easy to reach cost then it is game over, they will likely get rolled. Despite every argument for Elite Troops I have seen this fact remains.

The (only) argument against this is the future cost of the Tiger Ace.

The fact remains that any mp and fuel loss is suddenly much more punishing once the TA is on the field. That's the weakness the allied player has to exploit.

Imo its still crazy OP because you can tech T3 and get out several P4s, stugs, or ostwinds (whatever is needed) and still call in the Ace for no fuel cost. Being able to force a big engagement and seal the deal with the ACE is crazy strong. Besides, what is stopping you from just suiciding the ace, wiping as much as you can in the process, and getting your income back? All you have to do to justify the cost is roll it straight to your enemy's base. Its terrible game design.