Allied Medium Tanks Overperforming/too spammable?

So the more I play lately, the more it seems allied tanks - more so call ins are just so spammable and overperform for the cost, compared to similar Axis counter parts. This when using them and when going against them.

What are other thoughts on this? I still think there should be a tech level tied to call in's for all troops/tanks, etc. Other than Off maps.

I find most of these problems stem from the fact that the Panther - the "Premier medium tank" for both German factions just does not perform as good as it should, It performs about as good as a T34/85 but only vs tanks, its Anti Infantry is minimum at best. - Yes I realize the Panther is ment to be used as either a mobile flanking "Hunting" tank or long range slugger, but due to its terrible long range and on the move accuracy - paired with it's really low rate of fire means it just does not perform for it's cost.

Also means other tank counter's such as Jagdpanzer, Tiger and King Tiger just get swarmed by the time they can hit the field, even with Anti tank support, if it gets taken out and they trade a few tanks it does not matter allies usually have almost enough to drop another call in instantly.

The Puma seems the most solid vehicle Anti-tank that Okw have. Due to it's small profile it has good chance for shots to miss it, and has fairly good accuracy, rate of fire and damage, tied with it's Vet ability it can 1 Vs 1 almost any tank in the game, given the space and time if the tank is unsupported but that rarely happens.

So thoughts? Allied tanks too cheap/overperforming, Axis tanks too costly/underperforming or Should there be a Tech level/cost tied to call in Abilities?

Do not turn this thread in to a fanboy shitfest. Let's actually discuss this and bring up ideas/what could be done to make the mid-late game more fun other than just "Lol tank spam"

Also this is not a "Unit is overpowered thread" I think most of the tank's are pretty much where they need to be in terms of a unit and when they hit the field, I just feel some may be overperforming for their cost and are too cheap to field and/or too easily spammable.

What allied call ins are you talking about? Just the t-34/85? The American call ins besides the easy-eight are mediocre at best versus armor.

I dont disagree. especially with the t-34/85 and the easy 8. for 10 fuel more you get a tank that is way better then the p4. t34 and the standard sherman are well priced. both of these tanks call in should cost 150 fuel.

Stug III G is extremely cost effective vs. all but the E8.

T-34/85 and Sherman E8 are slightly underpriced, but only by a bit (15 fuel).

Ost Panther's teching cost is too high, but the tank is fairly priced.

Tiger and IS-2 are fairly priced.

Puma is an odd vehicle. Like the stug III G, if used properly with lots of attention it is really underpriced. otherwise, as a line unit it doesn't cut it.

Balance is much better than 2013.

It is mostly the E8 and T34/85 I am talking about, and T34/76 spam with Windustry - not as big a problem as it used to be but, still wins games.

3CP+ Infantry call in's could be tied to T2/3 depending on what they are as well, but they are a lot less broken and counter's can be out in time for them.

@Coh2player, I've noticed that actually, the StuG does a decent job vs all medium tanks if you keep it at range and micro it. Shame you have to do the same thing with the Panther and at a much higher cost/worst performance Jagdpanzer is similar, but I think Stug has better accuracy and damage? *Not looked in to the JagdP stats much so I can't confirm* Again as you said they are probably undercosted by about 15~ Fuel each, but that could be tied in to giving the call in a tech level requirement and keeping call in at it's current cost. Or simply by increasing the cost of the call in.

I have a feeling Fuel Caches only make this problem worse. Especially vs Okw. A "Fuel starved" faction vs a faction with 100% income + extra optional income for no downside? 400MP for 2 caches for an extra 6 fuel a minute is not a "downside" if you are good with your troops and don't bleed too much. You usually see 3 or 4 as well, so an extra +9/+12 fuel on top of regular income. It Seems a little wrong?

speaking as a poor micro zombie, I like the idea that the Puma is an outlier unit that rewards good micro.

I see it used 'normally' about 75% of the time but the rest I'm in awe of how cool it is.

Dat smoke.

And as you all know, I'm a CoH2 fanboy, not a faction 'x' or 'y' fanboy.

I disagree. The Puma or the Pz IV are pretty decent too so there is no need to want a nurf! It's fine as it is

The fact that axis infantry can have panzerschrecks obviously doesn't matter for medium tank balance purposes. PaK being the best ATgun for AT purposes or T34/85 being a doctrinal tank that forces you to take a commander neither...

But yes, if you want just compare T34/85 against PzIV, yes T34/85 is better. Just nerf it. And T70 too, that little shit os OP as hell.

I was trying to draw Comparison between T34/85 and Panther actually, not Pz4. But the Pz4J call in needs another 80 muni per tank to really make them effective.

I also just wanted to see the communities views on this. If they thought the call in's/t34-76/Sherman were overperforming for cost. - Not Overpowered as a unit (See newest Kat buff), just not as expensive as they should be with their current performance.

T70 isn't a medium tank, and tbh I think it's fine when compared with Stuart and Luchs, infact I think a Luchs can 1v1 a T70 and win handily, but a Stuart beats Luchs I think.

I also realize there is more to the mid-late game than just tanks, but even if you do get Infantry with anti-tank, Allied medium tanks are very good at Anti-infantry. The only good Medium Anti-Infantry Tank"s" for Germany are Pz4 and Ostwind - and the Ostwind isn't really a full tank.

Been saying this for ages.Sherman,easy eight and t-34/85 with 85 and e8 being primary culprits..this added to panther uselessness is teh source of this problem.U can't fight these with pz 4s,stugs with pak support are merely defensive options.Tiger only can go toe to toe unless u allow urself to be circled.Its a extremely 'limiting' feeling.I spend shitass resources to tech and get p4s and he gets free t-34/85 and e8 and spams them just as or even more fficeintly and u have almost no chance vs these.Panther inaccessible.pak only defensive option.Tiger too late.Elefant useless.

@op

Go load up advanced warfare. Call in two T34/85 against well microd Panther. You will see the issue with the panther vs the t34 is it's performance combined with Mark Vehicle. A lot of folks seem to think that 85s are only in Guards motor and see its performance in that setting then assume the tank is OP.

But I do agree with the tech requirement.

The only problem is _and has been for a long time_ that call-ins do not require tech.

Take any tank and look at purely its performance vs its cost. You will find that they are all pretty much balanced right.

The problem comes when you can skip tech in favor of getting more tanks via a doctrine. This problem is most obvious with the allies because they have a few doctrines with medium call-in tanks. The Wehrmacht also is quite good at it, not teching and going tigers is still reasonably valid, and of course the most powerful 1v1 doctrine, mechanised assault with their 6cp no-tech STUGE into 11CP tiger, does it better than any soviet doctrine could hope to do. OKW can't do it, but luckily for them they don't require much tech to get their medium tanks out.

I blame the ineffectiveness of the Panther for the over-performance of Allied medium tanks. The double T-34/85 call in is too good. I would expect them to destroy infantry, Panzer IVs and StuGs, but not a dedicated anti tank end of tech tree tank. A well microed Panther should make short process with medium tanks. But even if you keep your frontal armor constantly at the enemy, the Panther will lose to two medium tanks - and that is bad.

It is mostly the E8 and T34/85 I am talking about....

T34/85
Pre WFA the best medium tank (especially with mark target).
It's a doctrinal tank and in guards motor this combination is essentially the doctrines late game.
Powerful - but so are Tigers or any other doctrine with decent late game abilities.

E8
I think of the E8 as the current best medium tank.
It's AI and AT easily surpass the T34/85.
Again, it's a doctrinal medium tank and the doctrines 'ultimate' ability.


I do not feel qualified to comment on OKW (as of yet) but I do feel that in 1v1s US-OST matchups the E8s are definitely a pain.

The problem is that the US early game (unlike the soviet early game) tends to be very strong.

The E8 can effectively tackle anything that OST T3 can muster with the possible exception of very well microed Stugs. Additionally E8s are also easy to use unlike .. say .. SU-85s which are a pain to micro on some maps.
This prolongs the faction inherent dominance of US mapcontrol and resources allowing E8s to be 'spammed'.

EDIT: Pre 22nd patch all US tanks had one major drawback .. no reliable vehicle snares for riflemen. Prepatch that was a MAJOR OST advantage in all tank engagements.



So in short:
While the T34/85 are very powerful I don't think they need to be adjusted - the E8s however are a problem given the current pacing of the game.

So is the E8 too spammable or does it come out too early or both? People can't seem to make up their minds.

I think it just comes out too early. The call in should definitely be moved to 12 CP. I don't think people would complain as much if so.

I mean, you could increase the tanks cost by like 10-20 fuel and manpower, but I seriously doubt that's going to make much difference. That's only like a minute or two delay for the tank to hit the field. The Panther can easily handle the E8 but the problem is that it takes too long to get it so you either die or hold out and lose like 80% of your units or territory before getting the Panther on the field.

The reason why I think the call in should be moved to 12 CP is because it takes no tech cost. This also forces the player to have to make a risky decision about skipping T4 and not getting any tanks or being forced to build a Major to deal with the tanks/infantry.

tl;dr Increase CP cost for the Easy Eight.

I blame the ineffectiveness of the Panther for the over-performance of Allied medium tanks. The double T-34/85 call in is too good. I would expect them to destroy infantry, Panzer IVs and StuGs, but not a dedicated anti tank end of tech tree tank. A well microed Panther should make short process with medium tanks. But even if you keep your frontal armor constantly at the enemy, the Panther will lose to two medium tanks - and that is bad.

Should it really? You're talking about a 490/175 tank winning against 740/260 worth of armour or, in the case of two E8s, 760/270 worth of armour.

You can make the argument that the teching cost needs to be factored in, but the Soviets and US are typically going to tech to T3/T4 anyway out of necessity.

Should it really? You're talking about a 490/175 tank winning against 740/260 worth of armour or, in the case of two E8s, 760/270 worth of armour.

You can make the argument that the teching cost needs to be factored in, but the Soviets and US are typically going to tech to T3/T4 anyway out of necessity.

Except you arent taking into account all the teching costs required to get the panther.

Except you arent taking into account all the teching costs required to get the panther.

Why should I? A US player is still going to tech to either T2 or T3 and then T4 regardless of whether they get E8s or not.

Even if we're talking strictly about a situation wherein the US gets two E8s out with no T4, the E8s are still more expensive.

Why should I? A US player is still going to tech to either T2 or T3 and then T4 regardless of whether they get E8s or not.

Even if we're talking strictly about a situation wherein the US gets two E8s out with no T4, the E8s are still more expensive.

T2 + T3 + 2 Easy Eights cost 400 F , T2+ 2 T34 85s cost 310 F. Wehr Panther costs 365 for the first without T2 or T3 ,which 1. Is a specialized tank hunter, and for all the talk about pintle MGs has nowhere near the killing power of one t34 or ez8, let alone two 2. Flat out loses to the two mediums anyway. The Panther's horrid moving accuracy for a tank hunter compared to the m10 or m36 makes using the frankly very small 10 range advantage near impossible without scopes.

Not teching T3/T4 for Soviets and T4 for US is very doable and I'd guess optimal at least in 1v1s. At least, most people that rely on very cost efficient call ins don't tech. Same goes for the Tiger/IS2.

Same goes for the Tiger/IS2.

True, i don't even remember the last time i went for the P4, even worse for panther, maybe once in last 25 games.

I usually go for assault support, cuz air support helps with countering blobs and ofc tiger...
So, grens-mg (sniper vs usf), pak, and wait for tiger... Almost every single time.
That seems like a huge drawback for OH, cuz it is the only(?) true effective way to win a game for me. Shrecks? Nope, inf too expensive and fragile for its price to use, this isn't vCoh so u can't mix it very effective (atleast for Ostheer)... Well, something is clearly wrong with teching for ostheer, and F me if they nerf tiger even more :=
Only cost effective tank in Ostheer arsenal.