Wehrmacht T4

How would the community feel if the brumbar/sturmpanzer got its old AOE before the nerf of reducing it? Would it be a viable unit again? Or would it need to be buffed further or reduction in price? I do remember it being awesome especially during the age of when Shock troops came out at like 1 CP and they were spammed into late game.

Also Panther price reduction. This seems to be the most reasonable or at least the most common place of agreement among people.

Relic increased the fuel cost for both Ost and Soviet Teching cost several months ago, they increased the soviet T3/T4 fuel cost from 90 to 140. And they increased Ost T2+T3+T4 total fuel cost by 50 too.But, in next patch they just decreased the Soviet T3/T4 fuel cost by 20 fuel. So now Soviet T3/T4 cost only 120 fuel. I dont know why they do this job but it definitely make Katyusha coming out much earlier than Werfer. And now they buff Katyusha to OP with 160 damage per rocket. Ostheer Teching is a joke now, you must take long long time to tech first, costing 200 manpower, then you have to build a building costing 100+ manpower so that you can finally build high-teching units. While USF can just spend 200 manpower and 80 fuel to get a Teching upgrade and 1 infantry unit for free lol... Maybe removing the Ost T4 is fine...For me, I never build T4, T3 units are much better than T4 units atm.

Needs lower teching cost. The units in it are fine, but it's a huge risk to spend fuel to tech up once the late game starts.

In fact I wouldn't even think it would be wrong if the cost of teching to T4 was less then teching to T3.

The thing is you shouldn't skip t3, but you still should transition to t4 eventually. Ostheer t3 is great, but it peaks in effectiveness. You're better off building 1-2 t3 units and then teching than you are building 3-4. A panther is worth its weight in stugs or pziv's when it comes to tank combat.

The Brummbarr shouldn't be underestimated either. If you already have a Pak and a t3 tank, this can be a great way to end a game by getting some key squad wipes or pushing his base.

I don't trust the Brummbar enough to invest in it unless the game is won. Ever since its scatter got bumped up, it has a nasty habit of missing its intended target when it rolls up because rotating also counts as moving meaning the first shot tends to miss which is vital due to its long reload. That's a unit that needs hold fire.

And T4 is still too expensive to transition in smaller games when you have to pay 90 fuel to access options ranging from 160-175 fuel unless its the Pwerfer on top of, what you're stating, possible a single P4 125 for fuel and/or StuG at 80 fuel.

I don't trust the Brummbar enough to invest in it unless the game is won. Ever since its scatter got bumped up, it has a nasty habit of missing its intended target when it rolls up because rotating also counts as moving meaning the first shot tends to miss which is vital due to its long reload. That's a unit that needs hold fire.

And T4 is still too expensive to transition in smaller games when you have to pay 90 fuel to access options ranging from 160-175 fuel unless its the Pwerfer on top of, what you're stating, possible a single P4 125 for fuel and/or StuG at 80 fuel.

You also have to pay 200+160 manpower to T4. The cost of teching to ost T4 is too expensive and the time is too long. However , USF can spend 200 manpower and 80 fuel to get to T4 and 1 infantry unit for free. I still cant understand how this was designed by relic.

The problem with Wehr is that it's viable as 1v1 right now. I think of the two german factions, it's the most solid.

Again, that's a problem. It's not solid because every unit has a purpose and an optimal time to be produced, but because there's a couple very effective units that work, and that's it. That's why none of the issues have been messed with. I'm sure someone must be following the rule of "not broke, don't fix." I don't like that, I'd rather play with variety, but that's just my assumption. However, I also think that's why we are seeing so many more OKW than wehr. It's just really mundane because if you want to play well, you kind of have to do the same thing with little variation.

Gren spam is still more effective than a few grens and support weapons, PGs are still awful and the halftrack hasn't even been considered since teching to tier 3 for flamers, tier 3 is possibly the most well rounded, but the ostwind is still quite niche (not that that's a problem.) And Tier 4 is all but pointless until recently when people realized the werfer was doing well again.

It's very formulaic, tier 3, skip 4, get doctrinal call ins.

More to the point of T4. I think the panther is just too light for what it is. The stock heavy tank of the wehrmacht, but it gets ripped open. Increasing its health would be a good fix I think, and if they really wanted to make the brummbar appealing again, just buff its individual aoe some.

I could be looking through nostalgic goggles here, but I miss playing DoW2 when I had real choice to how I built based on what I was up against, what they were building, if I was playing with someone, and who they were playing as. You often didn't even build the same starting units based solely on the opposing faction. Granted, despite similarities, these aren't the same games and DoW is the more radical of the two, still, I'd like to think it'd be possible to achieve a similar feel.

Never ever, build T4 as whermacht as it is now. NEVER!

Amen!

T4 was quite rarely used by wehr in smaller games in vcoh too and back then stug was the only "tank" you could get from t3. IMO t4 should remain as a high risk-high reward option.

I'm quite happy with the current t4 units performance, albeit maybe panther could use slight fuel cost decrease or better moving accuracy. Last time I used brummbar it worked wonders against us infantry blob.

Maybe t2 could be enhanced somehow instead? If pgrens were little more durable maybe someone could actually consider skipping t3 and fast p4.

The Brumbar and Panzerwerfer both need their roles better defined, right now they're suffering from a serious identity crisis. The Werfer costs too much to be really used in 1v1s, and it's easily outclassed by the Walking Stuka in mixed teams.

As others have pointed out, the Brumbar's role has been taken by the Ostwind.

Maybe a slight increase to Brumbar AT ability to better differentiate it from the Ostwind? Allow it a more versatile fire support role, where the Ostwind remains the premier anti-infantry tank.

Then I would see either: buff the Werfer's accuracy or give it the precision strike vet ability instead or on top of the counter barrage. That would make the Walking Stuka arty that can cut a wide swath of destruction, while the Werfer is more pin-point accurate strike.
Or give it more missiles per barrage to give it an area of denial effect. Not sure what exactly the problem is, but it really is lacking hard compared to the walking stuka and the Katyusha.

The thing is you shouldn't skip t3, but you still should transition to t4 eventually. Ostheer t3 is great, but it peaks in effectiveness. You're better off building 1-2 t3 units and then teching than you are building 3-4. A panther is worth its weight in stugs or pziv's when it comes to tank combat.

This might be a good idea and how it's supposed to work but it's better to transition into Tiger than T4 in most cases. It's all down to call ins being too good for all factions.

Probably buff Panther to be as good as Oberkommando Panther (while keeping its current cost, which Wehrmacht can afford quite easily), and reduce the manpower costs of Wehrmacht battle phases, as they are currently over the top (you have to pay the price of a PIV to tech from tier 3 to tier 4 + make the T4 building, which isn't appealing at all, considering the performances of the units it unlocks).

I won't comment on the Brummbar as i mostly never used it.

It seems that the Panzerwerfer could use a little love as well, nobody needs another Katyusha balance error as it is now, but if Katyusha is nerfed, then Panzerwerfer would see more play.

Wehrmacht is a good faction overall, it needs some costs adjustments, and have it's T4 mainbattle tank be actually useful.

My 2 cents.

Panzerwerfer wasn't seen much before the katyusha was buffed, so why would it see more use if katyusha is nerfed? I don't get that.

This might be a good idea and how it's supposed to work but it's better to transition into Tiger than T4 in most cases. It's all down to call ins being too good for all factions.

I agree witH Dullahan, that tier skipping should be more accesible (espevially for Ost, who have the mandatory Battlephase expenditure). But also with you, that yes, callins are simply so much cheaper, and faster!, in comparison.

Callins have the design issue, that they are fixed to CP as a tertiary resource. BUT, CP are not expended! They jus accumalate.
To the result that you callin a unit, instantly, without build time, at value cost, which makes frankly all T4s look shit in comparison (especially Osts).

Looking at DoW2, a Relic equivalent, CPs where EXPENDED on the callins, so they became a depleted tertiary resource, that offset normal tier costs for advanced units.

Its probably too late, but frankly I would have always preferred it, if CoH2 CPs had been "expended" at their use, especially for callins, but also for ability uses.

Know what I mean?

Probably buff Panther to be as good as Oberkommando Panther (while keeping its current cost, which Wehrmacht can afford quite easily), and reduce the manpower costs of Wehrmacht battle phases, as they are currently over the top (you have to pay the price of a PIV to tech to tier 4 + make the T4 building, which isn't appealing at all, considering the performances of the units it unlocks).

I won't comment on the Brummbar as i mostly never used it.

It seems that the Panzerwerfer could use a little love as well, nobody needs another Katyusha balance error as it is now, but if Katyusha is nerfed, then Panzerwerfer would see more play.

Wehrmacht is a good faction overall, it needs some costs adjustments, and have it's T4 mainbattle tank be actually useful.

My 2 cents.

Are the OKW and Osteer Panthers not the exact same (except for vet bonus)? I could be wrong but........

Overall the panther needs a buff, this "its dedicated anti-tank role" is just not being fulfilled, it was nerfed while all Russian armor was buffed, hence its current state. I would increase its fire rate and give it a slight armor increase, but keep everything else as is, at V2 is can be a beast even now.

As for the brumbar I just dont use it so no ideas there! The pwefer is so underrated! The only thing holding this unit back is the teching cost to get it, its barrage is highly effective vs infantry and support teams. Comparing it to the current state of the Kat though, yes it looks UP but that is only due to that fact that the Kat is way too OP!

Panzerwerfer wasn't seen much before the katyusha was buffed, so why would it see more use if katyusha is nerfed? I don't get that.

Panzerwerfer is a perfectly legit arty in team games, but it is vastly overshadowed by current Katyusha (well, it would probably be worth being built in 1v1 if whole T4 teching costs were revised, i don't know).

Are the OKW and Osteer Panthers not the exact same (except for vet bonus)? I could be wrong but........

Overall the panther needs a buff, this "its dedicated anti-tank role" is just not being fulfilled, it was nerfed while all Russian armor was buffed, hence its current state. I would increase its fire rate and give it a slight armor increase, but keep everything else as is, at V2 is can be a beast even now.

As for the brumbar I just dont use it so no ideas there! The pwefer is so underrated! The only thing holding this unit back is the teching cost to get it, its barrage is highly effective vs infantry and support teams. Comparing it to the current state of the Kat though, yes it looks UP but that is only due to that fact that the Kat is way too OP!

From what i heard, since i don't look into ingame stats by myself, the OKW Panther has a better moving and standing accuracy. And no, it is not a 5% difference, more along the lines of 30% for both stats. And to be honest, playing both factions, everytime i got an OKW Panther out, it performed way better than the Wehr one, and i didn't know about the accuracy difference at the time, so it's not a placebo effect. If someone more versed into the stats aspect can confirm what i am saying, it would be cool

From what i heard, since i don't look into ingame stats by myself, the OKW Panther has a better moving and standing accuracy. And no, it is not a 5% difference, more along the lines of 30% for both stats. And to be honest, playing both factions, everytime i got an OKW Panther out, it performed way better than the Wehr one, and i didn't know about the accuracy difference at the time, so it's not a placebo effect. If someone more versed into the stats aspect can confirm what i am saying, it would be cool

OKW Panther has, in no particular order:

30% smaller scatter penalty on the move (1.7 vs 2 multiplication)
30% smaller accuracy penalty on the move (0.65 vs 0.5 multiplication)
up to 40% higher accuracy when standing still (0.035 vs 0.025 far)
25% higher dps on hull MG (8.1 vs 6.4)

plus it has higher vet bonuses and more of them. But those are the base stat differences.

Panthers use for be fairly common in 1v1 , before the price nerf now they are rarely seen even p4s are becoming rare most ppeople just hold out for a tiger because t3 isn't worth it and t4 is to expansive there needs to be an adjustment to the ost tier's because the tiger Meta is boring.

making OH panther equal to OKW panther and switching the battlephase and building cost should make T4 a lot better.
Brumbar is ok, but not somethign you would tech to t4 for. pwerfer is suprisingly good as long as you dont fire from max range.

and switching the battlephase and building cost

What do you mean exactly?
Not sure I understand.