Katyusha seriously need a nerf

This discussion seems to be really pissing off the regular sov fanbois.

Clear indication you are doing something right.

Well that's simple. This discussion was predicted successfully by many shortly after the first Stuka encounters. I'm sure you can still see those in the stuka thread.

Is it just me or was the pwerfer also buffed?

Panzerwefer always did well, especially when they undid the reload nerf. I even got a vet 3 one today just by attacking infantry capping points. Just drive close up to 1/4th, 1/3rd of max range, fire and run.

It just comes from the expensive T4 tech which has units that generally aren't that attractive.

"I don't see a Kat doing that"


....


AHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA*cough*cough, oh god, he's serious. Can someone upload a short video example of what Kat is doing?




MALECITE, ARCLYTE I'm calling you out. Post just one replay of you as OKW facing players of your ability who field a Katyusha. Oh and use a Walking Stuka at the same time. Do it or gtfo. I seriously doubt you will but let's see if you can.


If you don't, then take your avatar's advice and stop talking shit.

1000+ games as Soviets
0 as OKW / Ost


That would all be very interesting if you'd ever played a game as OKW, actually had to face it and knew what you were talking about. But you haven't, so you have no perspective.


Your best quote:

"to be honest I like the value that's being provided by the kat against OKW"

DO YOU? REALLY? WOW! Yes, of course you like it. I'd like it if suddenly my kubels and US M20s were given tank armour and sniper rounds. I'd come hunt you down with them. But that's called chumpish glee. You're not supposed to like it when you realise something's too powerful. You're supposed to think "oh, this is too easy, it's not interesting"

The irony of your avatar and signature.

"Let's keep it constructive"

essay

Let's keep it constructive

well put.

in regards to big team games, katusha now finally reliably punishes blobs without having to get close enemy for more precise shots. but i think it punishes too much now. slight nerf i think is needed especially against base buildings.

p.s. imo, katusha/panzerwerfer are proper blob punishers. walking stuka is precision squad wiper.

You really think the only reason you lost that game was because of the Kat's?

Yes I do.

I thought again about this whole situation and I think there is a difference between punishing blobs and killing whole squads.

Punishing blobs would mean that you lose a lot of models from your clumped up squads, which would give you both an economically significant disadvantage as well as make you lose territory because you have to mass retreat all your infantry. Artillery should definitely do that.

But if you completely lose squads, it doesn't have anything to do with blobbing, you could just have had that one or two squads being fired at and would still lose a whole squad, you didn't get any karma bonus chance in losing that squad because you blobbed.

If artillery kills a whole squad, you lose the whole veterancy on that squad and have to buy a new one, which costs you double as much as reinforcing, so that can hurt a lot. This hurts doubly much as OKW, who have very expensive elite infantry like Fallschirmjägers or Obersoldaten as well as an even higher dependence on veterancy than other factions.

I think we all want artillery to punish blobbing, but it shouldn't have such drastic impact that you can lose whole squads so easily. With RNG of course it can always happen if rockets land directly on you, but I think with Katyusha the odds may be a bit too high right now.


The Panzerwerfer while trying out seemed to get it right the best, it seems to kill often several models without killing whole squads so easily.

Yes I do.

LOL, you can't be serious. Have you actually watched the replay?
Your ally was properly punished for mindless blobbing and terrible truck placement. He moves his infantry in one group the entire game. ANY indirect fire will mess that up.
Game should be over in 15 minutes but the fact that you couldnt win against the awful US cpu who likes to abandon vehicles at the dumbest times convinces me you just got outplayed. You and especially your ally could have stopped moving in one group when you knew he had katyushas...

I would like to point out two logical fallacies in this thread, resorting to reductio ad absurdum.

Argument no. 1 : "Katyusha is fine because it discourages blobbing" : really? So discouraging blobbing is enough to make a unit's effectiveness a holy cow above such petty considerations as cost, cooldown, area of effect, etc? Fine. I propose a 10 munitions V1 rocket for the OKW, with 2 second cooldown. It discourages blobbing, which is apparently enough to make it balanced.

I hope you see how this argument becomes ridiculous, real fast. The lesson here is even anti-blobbing units can overperform, and plus, the Katyusha has so many uses now other than an anti-blob measure.

Argument no. 2 : "Lol this is the same as Walking Stuka situation, only with reversed roles". Well, yes. Except that has no bearing on the balance of Katyusha OR Stuka whatsoever. Let's say they increased the Stuka damage to 10000 per rocket, and made each rocket area of effect ten times as it is now, and reduced its cost to 20 fuel, and a thread was made crying OP (rightly).

Then I could say "Well, you complained about the Katyusha so now you have no right to complain about the new Stuka, they BOTH overperform." Would I be right to say that? Or would you want to bash my head in with a brick?

Does, for example, complaining about Obersoldaten somehow disqualify me from defending Riflemen damage, in the same way as expressing my opinion on Stuka apparently makes all my opinions on Katyusha null and void for all eternity? Where is the limit to that?

Well said, drChengele.

Many people don't know how to argue/debate properly.
It really is something that should get more focus in schools.

So many people here trying hard to preserve their beloved blobing it's sad. They shout nerf at everything that can deal with them.

Wish coh2 would go to the tactical placement of infantry pre-WFA. But no the OKW blob of doom must prevail...

LOL, you can't be serious. Have you actually watched the replay?
Your ally was properly punished for mindless blobbing and terrible truck placement. He moves his infantry in one group the entire game. ANY indirect fire will mess that up.
Game should be over in 15 minutes but the fact that you couldnt win against the awful US cpu who likes to abandon vehicles at the dumbest times convinces me you just got outplayed. You and especially your ally could have stopped moving in one group when you knew he had katyushas...

Yes, my Ally was blobing but the Soviet player was absolutely and utterly terrible! Hard countered very heavily and pushed back right from the start. He did nothing and achieved nothing until Katyushas, two of which I killed almost instantly! Obviously even bad players will eventually do something to prevent it and that's how I lost my Panther. Recon plane scouted the track and Katyusha made short work of it and because of this I was sent back in tech as well.

Now imagine what would have happened if Soviet player got at least minimal amount of skill.

So many people here trying hard to preserve their beloved blobing it's sad. They shout nerf at everything that can deal with them.

Wish coh2 would go to the tactical placement of infantry pre-WFA. But no the OKW blob of doom must prevail...

OKW doesn't have much options right now though. Volksgrenadiers cannot fight any infantry on their own so they need to walk together with other stuff, likewise Sturmpioniers need usually at least a Volksgrenader to draw fire so they can get in. USA blob their riflemen so you have to blob against them if you fight them with infantry as well. Maxims and Shock Troops cannot be taken on by single squads so again more groups of several squads walking together. Support teams cannot stand on their own, they need to be defended, so again groups of 2-3 squads standing together.

And read my post before, losing whole squads has nothing to do with blobbing, even if the Katyusha would be just shooting on 1-2 squads, then killing a whole squad of them has nothing to do with punishing blobs.

Perhaps we could consider a different approach to rocket artillery and punishing blobbing?

Currently both the stuka zf. and katyusha punish them just by dealing massive amounts of damage in a blanket area, leading to squad wipes, buildings getting destroyed, etc.

And yet in vCoH the nebelwerfer (or was it the stuka zf.?) countered blobs simply by adding a lot of suppression to the rockets, as well as an incendiary damage-over-time effect. Hardly any squad wipes and nowhere near as effective against buildings, but the blob got punished anyway.

This could also leave the role of high damage barrage artillery to howitzers, which, other than the B4, see very little use anyway.

They already did that.

How many static Whermacht or Russian Arty did you see in the last few patches?

It was fine until the Stuka came along.

I don't know why Relic has such a fucking hardon for indirect fire.

This game is full of long range death dealing units/abilities that it isn't even funny anymore.
Did I mention super tanks?
It turns anything above 2v2 into one big explosion (and 2v2 isn't to far off being clusterfuck)

Ok, nerf that fuckin' Katiusha back and the wurframen together with it. This is getting silly and out of control. Fuck both units, tone them down and reduce a little from wurframen cost, at least.

I think we need to define what blobbing is. I don't have a problem with there being a lot of infantry, my issue is when the player can disregard cover and use the attack move command and still come out the winner.

I played a game last night that was a 3v3 and there was a lot of blobbing. The guy I was fighting most was blobbing panzerfusiliers. It was really effective too, I lost pretty much all my infantry from direct and indirect encounters with them (mainly retreats going into their range). I started hitting him with the katyusha at his truck. I blew him up with demo charges. I placed mines and tripwire anytime I could. I used the ML-20 to beat down tanks and trucks. I'll check the replay but he survived often. There were squad wipes, but not all the time. I spent over an hour on that game and exceeded 80k damage.

I was able to wipe squads if I got close or of course used PS. One guy used 2 obers to cap a point and he lost them all to a PS. Max range or close to max range on a single squad is not worth it to me and I usually don't see wipes when I do that, unless the player doesn't retreat.

It was fine until the Stuka came along.

I don't know why Relic has such a fucking hardon for indirect fire.

Because it caused most of the casualties in the war?