USA - Weaksauce late game?

Interesting. Over the last few days especially I have been dealing with 8+ shermans/t34s. They just roam in packs and with OKW not having a decent medium tank or snare, they are hard to stop. It has been quite effective, more so than the infantry blobs.

I will say this, at the current cost, panthers are just out of the equation for OKW. I've been trying for a while to make it work and they just get overwhelmed by the time you get 1 panther you are facing too many shermans. Actually it would be interesting to run the numbers and figure out (with fuel caches) how many shermans you get get vs # of OKW panthers).

I really haven't considered the puma for AT due to it seeming too fragile. But at least it doesn't cost a ton of fuel to get.

I will give you that Ost is fine against the swarms. They have been dealing with t34 swarms for a while and they have the tools.


I like playing OKW because they are new and different. However I always hope my teamates are all OST solely for the AT.

8 Shermans is 2 or 3 players worth of armor so you are talking about 3/4 v 3/4.

Pumas are very effective due to their high pen (160), speed, and range (50). That's why mobile defense (Ost) and puma OKW is so popular. Double pumas, binded to hotkeys, are especially effective for hit and run.

Panther Command tank comes with spotting scopes with doubles the sight range.

The regular panther comes in late. PzS are good. Puppchen is good if it is part of network.

I don't mind the tanks being fragile - if they fix smoke so Shermans can use it on the move, and if they adjust some things on the other side.

I really just don't like seeing vet 5 pupchens doing the insane damage they're doing. I like to see units scale with vet, but c'mon, this is all out of proportion to the unit's original cost.

They need to adjust the vet bonuses or the scaling...Because they vet insanely fast too. You just need to keep one alive and you're pretty golden late game.

^Puppchens are hard to keep alive though. Maybe I'm just butterfingered but I find they get wrecked so easily. Their range is low and their ROF is low and they have no inherent cover so they can get blown away by infantry and even medium vehicles pretty quickly or at least force them to retreat while they can only fire a single rocket sometimes.

I feel I should be using them in bigger numbers instead of one supported by shrecks.

Oh also, I agree on the point US/SOV being able to wreak havoc on OKW with medium tanks in some situations. I've been trying to make good use of the Special Ops Commander by going Medic Truck -> Flak Truck and getting the Panther Call-in, but I find that I have no vehicles on the field until too late when trying to do that. If I invest in a Jagdpanzer IV then I won't be able to afford the Command Panther or even a regular one until very late in the game. Alternatively I can go Repair Truck and get Pumas instead which are a BIT cheaper, but that leaves me with no healing and the need to call in at least 2 Pumas or a Puma+Flak HT to deal with Infantry which puts me further behind the fuel for a Medium/Heavy tank.

I will say this, at the current cost, panthers are just out of the equation for OKW. I've been trying for a while to make it work and they just get overwhelmed by the time you get 1 panther you are facing too many shermans. Actually it would be interesting to run the numbers and figure out (with fuel caches) how many shermans you get get vs # of OKW panthers).

110 Fuel = US Sherman
175 Fuel = OH Panther
262 Fuel = OKW Panther

You can get roughly 5 Shermans (550F) for every 2 OKW Panthers (524F) or 3 Ostheer Panthers (525F). There is a 25-26F gap in favour of Axis, but it's difficult to match the numbers due to the OKW Panther's unusually high cost throwing it off.

Disclaimer: This comparison ignores all other factors including teching, units, caches, air drops, and fuel conversion. This statistic is only for fun, and not a sound basis for any argument.

8 Shermans is 2 or 3 players worth of armor so you are talking about 3/4 v 3/4.

Yea, I am talking about 3v3 and 4v4. And I understand the whole balance issue with those games modes. But as the Opel was recently changed for team games, seems like there are still reasonable things that can be done to make them more balanced.

^Puppchens …

I have had promising battles with the rakentenwerfer for support against smaller #'s of tanks. They are great AT support. They won't chase off tanks on their own because they die so fast. Even an insta retreat of a battery will see at least one die to focused fire. I find you need to use 2+ minimum. One is never going to do anything unless you just want to kill a scout car.

What you really need is another tank with them working in support. That is where my problems lie. I haven't been able to find that tank that works for OKW. I'm resolved to give Puma's and the JagdPzIV another shot though (the panther just doesn't cut it).

Oh also, I agree on the point US/SOV being able to wreak havoc on OKW with medium tanks in some situations…

Exactly my problem. 130 Fuel for the JagdPzIV is less than the 175 for the Panther plus the 40 fuel cheaper for the initial truck cost. I think I could probably get two them out and with some Rakentenwerfers, maybe that will work.

The other option is trying pumas which are only 70 fuel, so you could have like 4 of them. Worth experimenting with I think.

110 Fuel = US Sherman
175 Fuel = OH Panther
262 Fuel = OKW Panther

You can get roughly 5 Shermans (550F) for every 2 OKW Panthers (524F) or 3 Ostheer Panthers (525F). There is a 25-26F gap in favour of Axis, but it's difficult to match the numbers due to the OKW Panther's unusually high cost throwing it off.

Disclaimer: This comparison ignores all other factors including teching, units, caches, air drops, and fuel conversion. This statistic is only for fun, and not a sound basis for any argument.

I like the disclaimer. Because the reality is that with the reduced fuel income for OKW and lack of caches it gets worse. 5 Shermans vs 2 Panthers I think I give the win to the shermans there.

Exactly my problem. 130 Fuel for the JagdPzIV is less than the 175 for the Panther plus the 40 fuel cheaper for the initial truck cost. I think I could probably get two them out and with some Rakentenwerfers, maybe that will work.

The other option is trying pumas which are only 70 fuel, so you could have like 4 of them. Worth experimenting with I think.

I thought the JagdPzIV was only 100 Fuel now?

Either way, I did try the Puma only option recently. I wanted to see viability of using a commander with elite infantry (in this case Breakthrough Tactics with Fusiliers) and only building the Repair Truck and using the fuel saved on teching on just making vehicles. It wasn't pretty...

The Puma is great in early/mid game, and later in support roles, but by the time late game rolled around they were getting curb-stomped and I was bleeding fuel and/or sending them for repairs almost constantly. I wanted to cry when I saw how much damage that bloody AA halftrack from the US does to them...

I want to try out Special ops Doctrine with JagdPanzers now. If I get one jagdpanzer and 2 puppchens I might be able to hold enough fuel to eventually get the command Panther as well.
Problem then is good Anti-infantry, I guess Obers with MGs and Vampyrs will have to do.

^^^

With spec ops I did this for AT in my last OKW 2 v 2:

-3 volksgrens with PzS + sturmpios
-2 puppchen with the volks
-Pumas mid game + T4, obers to replace sturmpios, fought t-34 spam
-C-Panther late game vs. continuation of the T-34 spam

worked remarkably well. IIRC the match lasted 40 minutes plus.

Im lucky enough to have the rifle commander so in team games me and my friends do not have much trouble with axis heavy armor at all. I usually make 1 regular sherman to deal with p4's then once I get two easy 8's out with this 3 tank group I can easily take out panthers and single Tigers or King Tigers. Eventually I usually get up to 5 -6 tanks and used properly I can wipe the whole map of german armor using flanking patterns. My team mates also support my tactic with using jacksons, preist (which are great in numbers against okw as they can simply barrage there bases to death and also barrage heavy armor the germans are trying to repair and I have them take out any AT gun traps when we call in recon planes to clear the way for my 8's. I think the regular shermans could be just as effective doing this. A lot of times I see people using shermans and they stop moving which is a terrible idea you should always keep them moving they are very accurate on the move and it seems to give better chances of the enemy missing while your moving. Only time I stop one is to park it in a KT ass to stop it from backing up.

Also I always use zook blobs late game as it is not a terrible deal if I lose a sqaud here and there because I can simply just call out another squad instantly that is at least 1 star vet possible 2 already. The zooks do not work well in small amounts (only against light armor) I usually put at least one sometimes 2 per riflemen. They make excellent panther p4 and anything smaller tank killers and used with shermans they can really add that bit of dps you need to down heavy armor faster to allow your shermans to all make it out alive. The down side is every zook you equip lowers anti-inf dps of your riflemen but at this point i'm using my tank blob to kill inf as they do well against okw inf with 3 shermans or more they can wipe squads very quickly just by shooting ap shells at them. Also the M4C soviet lend lease sherman is very effective at killing german heavy armor as well in packs. It is super fast and have the 76mm gun for better dmg and pen but you have to be carefull on how and where to call in your fuel drop so it gets through as okw buildings are great at shooting down the fuel plane.

^ (@ COH2PLAYER) I only play 1v1, I might give it a try though.

My only concern with that is that it leaves me without the medic van which I like to have because I depend on my infantry so much. Having said that, Volks can self-heal before too long and I can use Sturmpio's Medic Supply drops in a pinch too...

My problem is not that US doesn't have a late game, but that it's not very fun. As OP said, it's very micro intensive and that's frustrating,but it feels like every other faction can get some awesome toys in the late game while the Americans just create finicky armor blobs from mid-on. I like the Sherman bulldozer, but there isn't much else there.

I thought the JagdPzIV was only 100 Fuel now?

Could be. I haven't used it in a while and I pulled that number from the guide on the website here. If so, that would be great.

Interesting experience with the pumas. Breakthrough tactics is my preferred commander right now because I love the fusiliers. It does contrast coh2player's experience however.

I agree though about the american half track. That thing is ridiculous. It shreds everything. One game I decided to fast tech to the PZII. It wasn't so bad at first, then I met the flak truck which forced me to retreat. I figured a tank vs a truck would be in my favor...nope. Then came the shermans and it was over for our team.

Im lucky enough to have the rifle commander so in team games me and my friends do not have much trouble with axis heavy armor at all. I usually make 1 regular sherman to deal with p4's then once I get two easy 8's out with this 3 tank group I can easily take out panthers and single Tigers or King Tigers. Eventually I usually get up to 5 -6 tanks and used properly I can wipe the whole map of german armor using flanking patterns. My team mates also support my tactic with using jacksons, preist (which are great in numbers against okw as they can simply barrage there bases to death and also barrage heavy armor the germans are trying to repair and I have them take out any AT gun traps when we call in recon planes to clear the way for my 8's. I think the regular shermans could be just as effective doing this. A lot of times I see people using shermans and they stop moving which is a terrible idea you should always keep them moving they are very accurate on the move and it seems to give better chances of the enemy missing while your moving. Only time I stop one is to park it in a KT ass to stop it from backing up.

This is it right here. Two players massing medium tanks and another massing priests used with the recon planes. I have seen this a handful of times now and boy is it nasty.

I like the disclaimer. Because the reality is that with the reduced fuel income for OKW and lack of caches it gets worse. 5 Shermans vs 2 Panthers I think I give the win to the shermans there.

I'm not so sure rarely is it ever going to be straight up 5 shermans vs 2 panthers. There will be shrek and zooks and at guns. The shrek does way more dmg to shermans especially hit in the ass and to kill those panthers you will get exposed flanking you cannot attack them toe to toe you will lose every time. I think smart panther players win easily here by just backing up and using range sherman isn't that fast unless its already in full sprint and veted and can suprise the panther. the panther is incredibly fast for as big of a tank it is compared to a sherman. Attacking from the front most sherman hits are going to bounce. I think it is about even the smarter driver or sometimes what rng and pathing of some maps want to do will make the winner of that.

I always get the medic van as soon as possible, as it is more important than anything else to me espec. since I make and use sturmpios to fight with Spec ops.

So far I consider 3 x volksgrens w/ Panzershrecks plus puppchen as needed to be vital for the OKW faction. Some players actually don't build volks and trade them for sturmpios or doctrinal infantry; personally it is the sturmpios that I replace, not the volks.

As the game develops, the Panther I try to get will be outnumbered so I don't use it against armor unless it's well supported.

^ (@ COH2PLAYER) I only play 1v1, I might give it a try though.

My only concern with that is that it leaves me without the medic van which I like to have because I depend on my infantry so much. .

They can put up a strong defense, but after most axis armor is knocked out, what then? They'd need to push forward to exploit and this is often the problem.

With all fuel invested in Jacksons/M8s instead of shermans, exploitation of the situation is the problem.

The Pershing would solve the problem- it's both close support heavy armor, AI and AT.



The defensive nature of US late game puts the iniative back to the Axis side. They can more easily dictate where to attack when Us fuel is sunk into jacksons.

if by,"Late Game" we're talking 35-40+ minutes,then

The US SHOULD have at leasta sherman or 2 from around the 17-30 min mark, Jacksons some time after that,and then add the M8s as icing on the cake,along with at least 3-5 squads of vetted rifles or paras,with upgrades.

Not the strongest or easiest to micro late game,but Definitely not weaksauce.
especially if you were straight abusing the great early-mid game the US has,and wiping squads,stealing weapons,etc

I absoulutely love playing into the late game with the US,unlike the soviets

M36. A fast turreted tank destroyer with 60 range that can penetrate everything with the vet ability. Nothing new to say there.

Really? Everyting? How about Tiger front armor? Not to mention King Tiger. Sure it can take it but it's not often. Once I had a game when Tiger with HP for one shot retreated to the base. I couldn't flank it so I just put my Jackson in front of Tiger. First shot deflected. Tiger hits. Second shot deflected and then Tiger destroyed my M36.

In 3v3 there is also huge problem with vehicles with good support. How many times I had situation where I almost took down King Tiger but it just moved back a little, repairs, shows up, and again repairs.
The problem is that USF can not chase to bring down almost dead unit. That's the main problem.

I think comparing the m8 motor carriage to the SU76 is a bit unfair. Yes, for 5 fuel more you get a vehicle that is significantly better in every way conceivable, but this is only because the SU76 is horribly overpriced for its performance.

Really? Everyting? How about Tiger front armor? Not to mention King Tiger. Sure it can take it but it's not often. Once I had a game when Tiger with HP for one shot retreated to the base. I couldn't flank it so I just put my Jackson in front of Tiger. First shot deflected. Tiger hits. Second shot deflected and then Tiger destroyed my M36.

In 3v3 there is also huge problem with vehicles with good support. How many times I had situation where I almost took down King Tiger but it just moved back a little, repairs, shows up, and again repairs.
The problem is that USF can not chase to bring down almost dead unit. That's the main problem.

did you use its vet ability?