July 15th patch?
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and the next thing is, why no fix to US halftrack, M1919 and rifleman its no really fun playing ost 1vs1 atm, cause you mostly met americans and have more stress in the game then fun simply because you cant make mistakes or you lose while the US player can make mistakes
Posts: 542
what i personaly dont like is that they try to balance units now with that acc modifiers, that is all to rng based i have the feeling the should more work with the armor values afterall yes you can have high resistance by that modifier but if you have bad luck your squads can also die in a second because rng decided they get a lot of hits, with armor you atleast have a fixed value what a unit can take and that makes them reliable i mean just look at shocks they are reliable thanks to their 1,5 armor because you know what they can take, pgrens on the other hand sometimes they are extremely durable other times they fall in 2 seconds
and the next thing is, why no fix to US halftrack, M1919 and rifleman its no really fun playing ost 1vs1 atm, cause you mostly met americans and have more stress in the game then fun simply because you cant make mistakes or you lose while the US player can make mistakes
Armor is also RNG like received accuracy modifiers. More armor reduces the chance that a shot that hits you does damage to you, unless the armor is equal or lower to the penetration value of the weapon. Most small arms have 1.0 penetration if I remember right, and most units have 1.0 armor, so if they get hit by small arms they will always take damage. A unit with 1.5 armor will have a chance not to take damage from a shot that hit it, which has the same effect as not being hit at all.
The only differences between the armor and received accuracy modifiers on infantry is that received accuracy also applies to weapons that would penetrate you either way, like tanks and artillery, unless you had huge armor values. Since they wanted to make elite infantry less vulnerable to these sources they removed armor from most units and gave them that received accuracy modifier instead.
Posts: 47
How was panzergrenadier overperforming..lol.Data is not everything..data should be combined with in game results and feedback.Panther another example of 'data' in pen and range..but in game factors render both of these largely redundant.Ober was right decision..fallschirm i'm not sure..will need playing.Meanwhile despite 'data' changes usa halftrack still running riot.
In the case of panzergrenadiers, it might have to do with the fact that 5 squads of pgren all equipped with Schrecks. Leave no armour alive. Possible because of a certain commander where you can trade fuel for ammo. + its hard to kill even a single squad with 3 riflesquads... they just come kill your armor and run
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In the case of panzergrenadiers, it might have to do with the fact that 5 squads of pgren all equipped with Schrecks. Leave no armour alive. Possible because of a certain commander where you can trade fuel for ammo. + its hard to kill even a single squad with 3 riflesquads... they just come kill your armor and run
5 Pzgrens, all upped with schrecks - a very realistic scenario (It's even a fact as you stated).
Don't know how much 0.13 can change, but it's still annoying that one entity can die as soon it's spotted by engineers while moving around.
Posts: 29
and about the 5 pgrens with schreck well if your enemy gets this much ammo you did something really wrong in that game, and if he uses the fuel to ammo commander well be happy get more bars or even better 1919 and eradicate his infantry in seconds, that is what makes the rifleman that strong in 1vs1 against ost you simply cant get any infantry that can fight them on equal levels add 1 m36 and you also kill all possible tanks if he will ever get any^^
and abou that modifier i read somewhere in the coh2 forum that before pgrens where equal 1.33 armor and now are equal 1,15
http://community.companyofheroes.com/forum/company-of-heroes-2/coh-2-balance-feedback/73746-lol-pgs-did-get-nerfed-why
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Bad change log all around so hopefully Relic does the right thing and return German infantry to normal.
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oh nice to know about armor i always thought it was a general modifier for reducing damage, good to know thank you
and abou that modifier i read somewhere in the coh2 forum that before pgrens where equal 1.33 armor and now are equal 1,15
There are close to no differences between incoming accuracy or armor modifiers from the gameplay point of view. Armor looks worse though, as you can see the shots impacting, but dealing no damage (even against units that historically were not wearing body armor).
This whole patch contained no 'balance changes', but was actually bugfixes. If you look at the last changelog you can see that PGrens should get 0.85 incoming accuracy modidifers, not 0.75
The other changes are somewhat similar.
Posts: 978
This appears like a tiny nerf, why does everybody makes it sound like the units are nerfed to oblivion? Especially about Obs. They still wreck units from afar and usually do not need to stand in harms way most of the time to clear enemy infantry.I´m not complaining about Obers, I´m complaining about Panzergrenadiers. Why is that tiny nerf even needed if the unit is hardly ever built? Then in two weeks everybody is wondering why there are no Panzergrenadiers around. Just wait for the next topic complaining about LMG Gren spam. Every decent player will not built Panzergrenadiers.
There was absolutely no nerf needed for PGs. It might be tiny, but doesn´t change the fact that this is bullshit. You don´t nerf a unit that´s decent at best. Imagine they nerf conscripts - don´t worry, it´s only going to be a tiny nerf. See? That argument of a "tiny nerf" doesn´t seem satisfying.
In before some smartasses that claim the PGs are still perfect for hiding next to a MG42 in green cover. That´s soooo worth it. I tell you a secret: Grens can do that also and even more cost effective. And nobody is going to built a unit just to park it next to his MG.
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PGrens should not be able to frontally charge another squad and kill it, as this causes PGren blobs and does not fit to the tactical elements of unit positioning. That's why they were changed in the first place - They were too strong and in a way that broke the game. To compensate, they got a higher damage, but less durability, meaning they need to be handle more carefully now, but can be just as devastating.
If you take a look at the graphs (http://www.coh2.org/topic/6598/coh-2-dps-spreadsheet/post/175221) or the values (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApmrrrPr20ncdGF4VURuYjVGZXlIN3ptbV8tbzRzN0E&usp=drive_web#gid=0) you can see that they start to have more damage than Grens already at 31 range. At this range they already perform better than baseline Grens, but they do not perform better considering their cost. If you want to add that in (340/240 => ~1.5 times better) you get roughly such a performance already at 22 range. Since they also take less damage (and it's not 1.5, but a bit less) at such a range they already vastly outperform normal Grens.
Now you have to take a look at other factors as well, like the LMG42 upgrade for Grenadiers and let's compare the DPS. Once again, we artificially increase the DPS of Grens by a factor of 1.5 to take the higher cost of PGrens into account. We'll see that at the range of 15 the PGrens once again start to be better. That means even compared to an upgraded LMG42 Grenadier, PGrens outperform it per cost at <15 range in regards to damage dealt.
Why is that so important? Because a lot of people tend to get really close with their PGrens, lose one or two entities to do so and then of course deal minimal damage, have to retreat and complain about the unit. That's false use. Go to ~15 range (That's roughly half the vision range as a rule of thumb) or to a similar distance if there is better cover. Don't close in further, as at that range you are already in a good spot and closing in further greatly increases the damage you take in the process and the chance to lose an entity. Staying at such a range usually yields the best results.
Yet this is just one of the roles of the PGrens and actually one where they perform worst. Besides that they are a great flanking squad. If you manage to actually get close to the enemy without them firing on you, do it. The closer you can get, the better usually(exception vs SMG troops), yet only if you can do so without being fired on. Closing in under fire => losing entities => higher MP drain for you and actually often less DPS than at a longer range.
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0 - 5 - 10 - 15 - 20 - 25 - 30 - 35 ranges
1.20 1.20 1.43 0.37 0.16 0.11 0.06 0.12 vs Shocks
0.29 0.27 0.25 0.33 0.37 0.40 0.49 0.82 vs Conscripts
0.32 0.33 0.37 0.59 0.78 1.05 1.59 3.27 vs Guards with DP-28
0.48 0.48 0.40 0.47 0.55 0.67 0.94 1.80 vs Rifles
0.70 0.70 0.64 0.82 1.05 1.36 1.99 3.90 vs Rifles with 2 BAR
As you can see it differs vs different units, but vs cons they are most effective at 10 range, below they get less effective, but above they are only slightly less effective (insufficient if you have to charge under fire). Similar behavior vs Riflemen. I hope that helps to show people that PGrens are no close range unit, but a midrange one.
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Of course you are usually not going to stand around for ages when your squad is nearly gone, but it can make a noticeable difference.
The same applies to American Riflemen with their weapon upgrades, or Obersoldaten with their LMG34, which gives them another edge over things like Fallschirmjägers.
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Posts: 525
No change on early US Riflemen that outclass Grens?or early Scout Car?...it's almost as bad as the Soviet M3....back to mg spam I guess
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