July 15th patch?

Guys I don't think it was a PZg nerf specifically, it was probably an across-the-board change to German "Elite Infantry" since they all had the same recieved acc modifier and now they all have the same, less effective modifier.

what i personaly dont like is that they try to balance units now with that acc modifiers, that is all to rng based i have the feeling the should more work with the armor values afterall yes you can have high resistance by that modifier but if you have bad luck your squads can also die in a second because rng decided they get a lot of hits, with armor you atleast have a fixed value what a unit can take and that makes them reliable i mean just look at shocks they are reliable thanks to their 1,5 armor because you know what they can take, pgrens on the other hand sometimes they are extremely durable other times they fall in 2 seconds


and the next thing is, why no fix to US halftrack, M1919 and rifleman its no really fun playing ost 1vs1 atm, cause you mostly met americans and have more stress in the game then fun simply because you cant make mistakes or you lose while the US player can make mistakes

what i personaly dont like is that they try to balance units now with that acc modifiers, that is all to rng based i have the feeling the should more work with the armor values afterall yes you can have high resistance by that modifier but if you have bad luck your squads can also die in a second because rng decided they get a lot of hits, with armor you atleast have a fixed value what a unit can take and that makes them reliable i mean just look at shocks they are reliable thanks to their 1,5 armor because you know what they can take, pgrens on the other hand sometimes they are extremely durable other times they fall in 2 seconds


and the next thing is, why no fix to US halftrack, M1919 and rifleman its no really fun playing ost 1vs1 atm, cause you mostly met americans and have more stress in the game then fun simply because you cant make mistakes or you lose while the US player can make mistakes

Armor is also RNG like received accuracy modifiers. More armor reduces the chance that a shot that hits you does damage to you, unless the armor is equal or lower to the penetration value of the weapon. Most small arms have 1.0 penetration if I remember right, and most units have 1.0 armor, so if they get hit by small arms they will always take damage. A unit with 1.5 armor will have a chance not to take damage from a shot that hit it, which has the same effect as not being hit at all.

The only differences between the armor and received accuracy modifiers on infantry is that received accuracy also applies to weapons that would penetrate you either way, like tanks and artillery, unless you had huge armor values. Since they wanted to make elite infantry less vulnerable to these sources they removed armor from most units and gave them that received accuracy modifier instead.

How was panzergrenadier overperforming..lol.Data is not everything..data should be combined with in game results and feedback.Panther another example of 'data' in pen and range..but in game factors render both of these largely redundant.Ober was right decision..fallschirm i'm not sure..will need playing.Meanwhile despite 'data' changes usa halftrack still running riot.

In the case of panzergrenadiers, it might have to do with the fact that 5 squads of pgren all equipped with Schrecks. Leave no armour alive. Possible because of a certain commander where you can trade fuel for ammo. + its hard to kill even a single squad with 3 riflesquads... they just come kill your armor and run

In the case of panzergrenadiers, it might have to do with the fact that 5 squads of pgren all equipped with Schrecks. Leave no armour alive. Possible because of a certain commander where you can trade fuel for ammo. + its hard to kill even a single squad with 3 riflesquads... they just come kill your armor and run

5 Pzgrens, all upped with schrecks - a very realistic scenario (It's even a fact as you stated).

Don't know how much 0.13 can change, but it's still annoying that one entity can die as soon it's spotted by engineers while moving around.

oh nice to know about armor i always thought it was a general modifier for reducing damage, good to know thank you

and about the 5 pgrens with schreck well if your enemy gets this much ammo you did something really wrong in that game, and if he uses the fuel to ammo commander well be happy get more bars or even better 1919 and eradicate his infantry in seconds, that is what makes the rifleman that strong in 1vs1 against ost you simply cant get any infantry that can fight them on equal levels add 1 m36 and you also kill all possible tanks if he will ever get any^^

and abou that modifier i read somewhere in the coh2 forum that before pgrens where equal 1.33 armor and now are equal 1,15

http://community.companyofheroes.com/forum/company-of-heroes-2/coh-2-balance-feedback/73746-lol-pgs-did-get-nerfed-why

All this change log proves is that if the Allies cry long enough, Relic will eventually nerf the Germans until they they're gutted. The only hard counter to mass rifles with LMG's is literally Obersoldaten's and walking stuka's, with the latter costing a good 100+ fuel, but now that they've nerfed the Obersoldaten, the OKW are quite simply ****** since US and Soviet infantry can move around the battlefield without fearing any hard counters(From the OKW at least).

Bad change log all around so hopefully Relic does the right thing and return German infantry to normal.

such a terrible patch

Well it's only been a week or so since the last balance patch, I'd prefer a relatively small patch every 10 days than a big patch every month.

And still no change to unfinished wire being able to block.. ugh..

Can I just say I think way to much emphasis is being out on individual units everytime we discuss balance in this game. Sure looking at unit statistics the likes of obersoldaten or panzer grens they may put up effective numbers that is above realistic in regards to their cost. But what really matters in my opinion is their role in their specific army and what hole they fill. For the likes of OKW players we are completely reliant on doctrinal units like the mg34 or panzer fusiliers. Against high vet allied infantry blobs and shock troops we need a core unit like the obersoldaten to keep up in the general mid game. So what I'm trying to say is that these units getting nerfed might be considered too cost effective on their own but in the general role in the respective faction they fill a fair role and it's not right to have them nerfed.

This appears like a tiny nerf, why does everybody makes it sound like the units are nerfed to oblivion? Especially about Obs. They still wreck units from afar and usually do not need to stand in harms way most of the time to clear enemy infantry.

oh nice to know about armor i always thought it was a general modifier for reducing damage, good to know thank you

and abou that modifier i read somewhere in the coh2 forum that before pgrens where equal 1.33 armor and now are equal 1,15

There are close to no differences between incoming accuracy or armor modifiers from the gameplay point of view. Armor looks worse though, as you can see the shots impacting, but dealing no damage (even against units that historically were not wearing body armor).


This whole patch contained no 'balance changes', but was actually bugfixes. If you look at the last changelog you can see that PGrens should get 0.85 incoming accuracy modidifers, not 0.75
The other changes are somewhat similar.

This appears like a tiny nerf, why does everybody makes it sound like the units are nerfed to oblivion? Especially about Obs. They still wreck units from afar and usually do not need to stand in harms way most of the time to clear enemy infantry.

I´m not complaining about Obers, I´m complaining about Panzergrenadiers. Why is that tiny nerf even needed if the unit is hardly ever built? Then in two weeks everybody is wondering why there are no Panzergrenadiers around. Just wait for the next topic complaining about LMG Gren spam. Every decent player will not built Panzergrenadiers.

There was absolutely no nerf needed for PGs. It might be tiny, but doesn´t change the fact that this is bullshit. You don´t nerf a unit that´s decent at best. Imagine they nerf conscripts - don´t worry, it´s only going to be a tiny nerf. See? That argument of a "tiny nerf" doesn´t seem satisfying.

In before some smartasses that claim the PGs are still perfect for hiding next to a MG42 in green cover. That´s soooo worth it. I tell you a secret: Grens can do that also and even more cost effective. And nobody is going to built a unit just to park it next to his MG.

Till this day I see people using PGrens wrong, this is probably the biggest problem, not their actual strength. There are quite some good players who gave them a shot and use them in a good way, Twister is one example.

PGrens should not be able to frontally charge another squad and kill it, as this causes PGren blobs and does not fit to the tactical elements of unit positioning. That's why they were changed in the first place - They were too strong and in a way that broke the game. To compensate, they got a higher damage, but less durability, meaning they need to be handle more carefully now, but can be just as devastating.
If you take a look at the graphs (http://www.coh2.org/topic/6598/coh-2-dps-spreadsheet/post/175221) or the values (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApmrrrPr20ncdGF4VURuYjVGZXlIN3ptbV8tbzRzN0E&usp=drive_web#gid=0) you can see that they start to have more damage than Grens already at 31 range. At this range they already perform better than baseline Grens, but they do not perform better considering their cost. If you want to add that in (340/240 => ~1.5 times better) you get roughly such a performance already at 22 range. Since they also take less damage (and it's not 1.5, but a bit less) at such a range they already vastly outperform normal Grens.
Now you have to take a look at other factors as well, like the LMG42 upgrade for Grenadiers and let's compare the DPS. Once again, we artificially increase the DPS of Grens by a factor of 1.5 to take the higher cost of PGrens into account. We'll see that at the range of 15 the PGrens once again start to be better. That means even compared to an upgraded LMG42 Grenadier, PGrens outperform it per cost at <15 range in regards to damage dealt.

Why is that so important? Because a lot of people tend to get really close with their PGrens, lose one or two entities to do so and then of course deal minimal damage, have to retreat and complain about the unit. That's false use. Go to ~15 range (That's roughly half the vision range as a rule of thumb) or to a similar distance if there is better cover. Don't close in further, as at that range you are already in a good spot and closing in further greatly increases the damage you take in the process and the chance to lose an entity. Staying at such a range usually yields the best results.
Yet this is just one of the roles of the PGrens and actually one where they perform worst. Besides that they are a great flanking squad. If you manage to actually get close to the enemy without them firing on you, do it. The closer you can get, the better usually(exception vs SMG troops), yet only if you can do so without being fired on. Closing in under fire => losing entities => higher MP drain for you and actually often less DPS than at a longer range.

Good info Milka. Thanks

To slightly emphasize my point a bit more - DPS of a squad / DPS of PGren squad at different ranges. The lower the number, the better for PGrens:
0 - 5 - 10 - 15 - 20 - 25 - 30 - 35 ranges
1.20 1.20 1.43 0.37 0.16 0.11 0.06 0.12 vs Shocks
0.29 0.27 0.25 0.33 0.37 0.40 0.49 0.82 vs Conscripts
0.32 0.33 0.37 0.59 0.78 1.05 1.59 3.27 vs Guards with DP-28
0.48 0.48 0.40 0.47 0.55 0.67 0.94 1.80 vs Rifles
0.70 0.70 0.64 0.82 1.05 1.36 1.99 3.90 vs Rifles with 2 BAR

As you can see it differs vs different units, but vs cons they are most effective at 10 range, below they get less effective, but above they are only slightly less effective (insufficient if you have to charge under fire). Similar behavior vs Riflemen. I hope that helps to show people that PGrens are no close range unit, but a midrange one.

Don't forget that PGs damage drops down equally with each model lost, while Grenadiers have a huge part of their DPS on the LMG model, which just gets replaced by another model in the squad if he dies. So they can deal a lot of damage even with less models.

Of course you are usually not going to stand around for ages when your squad is nearly gone, but it can make a noticeable difference.

The same applies to American Riflemen with their weapon upgrades, or Obersoldaten with their LMG34, which gives them another edge over things like Fallschirmjägers.

Yes, but you always need to abstract. PGrens receive less damage and are better on the move. LMGs tend to have far less DPS then actually written down since they move around often. It's always just an abstraction and can never replace actual ingame experience, but it can give you nice hints on how to use units.

Good changes on the german super soldiers...bad change on PanzerGrens...
No change on early US Riflemen that outclass Grens?or early Scout Car?...it's almost as bad as the Soviet M3....back to mg spam I guess