Toughts of a veteran on the airborne company

Hello, this is a copy of a thread i made on the official CoH2 forum. I heard i could get much more meaningful responses by posting it here instead.

Here's the link if you wanna see what was discussed so far: http://community.companyofheroes.com/forum/company-of-heroes-2/company-of-heroes-2-general-discussion/66998-toughts-of-a-veteran-on-airborn-commander

And here is the copy of the main post that i updated over time with the discussions.

Preface:
The Idea behind this post isn't to make the airborn OP, stronger or whatever you whant but to give these guys a unique play style that no other commander offers. Akind to the original airbornes and Royal commandos since they are kind of a mix of these 2. Relic made the Rifleman the backbone and the most versatile basic unit, any other unit would really need to have a specific role to really contrast with them (keep that in mind).

Hi there, i am a fan of CoH since it's very first days, the first commander i fell in love with was the Airborn one (not classified as commanders back then, but whatever). I'd play this one for the vast majority of my playtime.
When opposing front came out, it was the Royal commandos. having elite infantry who could infiltrate, plant bombs and escape with the use of concealment smokes was just the ****, couple that with radio triangulation and you had one nice mix for guerrila warfare.
For CoH2 i did have some fun with the partisan commander.
Now you probably have an idea of my playstyle and background, here's what i have to say about CoH2's airborn commander.

Western armies came out and i am really happy to see the airborns back in action. Here's my tougths on this company.

The state of things:
Overall, this commander is pretty underwelming. If you saw anyone using it you probably noticed they don't do much airborne stuff. Usualy using this commander to tier skip, drop guns for his rifleman and at some point, maybe, starting to call in those glorified rifleman.

Pathfinders: I love this idea, kudos to Relic. As far i know, most airborn regiments had pathfinders to recon the landing zones and give the go for the drop. Here that's exactly what they do and that's great. But for a recon unit that's suposed to be comming before the main force, it comes kind of late, it's really hard to hide it and it's kind of expansive at 290 mp for a 4 man squad that's not really good at fighting and will only serve as a recon and beacon planter.

.50 drop: Nothing much to say about this one, 50s anywhere anytime, but it kinds of overlap with the .30s and it has an extra 100MP cost to it.

57mm AT gun: This one is great too, back in CoH1 it was my main AT weapon to deal with tanks. Let you skip certain tier which is nice. But it is sadly grossly overpriced, a real MP sink with it'S 112 extra MP cost.

P-47: Nothing to say about this one either, goes for a few runs and hit like nothing else on tanks. My only complain is that it dosen't target the OKO command vehicules. I don't know why people hate it so much.

Paratroopers: OK, now here we are, the core of the airborn commander, what should make up most of your army. Sadly, they are pretty underwhelming and that's the biggest problem with this commander.
Now some people compared these guys to UberSoldaten (lol), Shocks and PzGren. After checking the numbers, unupgraded they have the lowest DPS of all these guys and only have frags. this hardly gives them any tactical potential for flanking or supporting. Once upgraded they start to have similar DPS to the other units but you paid premium and you still don't have the abilities of the other units (armor, smoke, ...). They also cost 3 CPs which takes longer for the US to obtain compared to other factions (shocks and the likes are often 2 CPs, too)
Their timed explosive is also uterly useless and this is no hyperbole, there is litteraly nothing you can use that on unless you are some kind of tactical genius who can time it to hit a retreating unit, find a eastern front bunker or an oblivious enemy who let you plant that at it's feets. The uses are very limited.
Overall, they are some kind of glorified rifleman, taking 3 CPs, a call-in slot, 380 MP, 9 pop and some munitions for upgrades.


Suggestions : This list is a list of suggestion, take those that you like and dislike and discuss them, i update it after some times with what was discussed. Also don't say that it would be OP if they had all that, it's just some suggestion, no need to implement them all. Every solution tries to follow the style that the commander tries to have which is guerrila warfare and co.

Pathfinders:

• These guys are kind of always late to the party for a recon unit, making them 0CP like the assault engineers probably wouldn't be too much. This way you could start planting beacons and observe enemy movement from the start while starting to build your airborn centered army.
  
  
• Giving them a skill akind to concealment smoke from the commandos of CoH1 (pop smoke on the unit, makes it invisible and remove supression, but the effect wears off if you run toward the enemy), would help this non-combat unit disengage without retreating and get back to hiding. This skill is purely defensive and is useless if you try to use it on the offensive.
  
  
• Someone suggested boobytraps, could be an interesting addon but it deters from it's recon role and i don't think it's very doctrinal for the US (correct me if i am wrong). In the same categorie, i would suggest trip flares. Fits perfectly for a recon unit without giving them power.
  
  
• The pathfinders had to cross the enemy line to reach the zone they had to recon (sometimes even paradropped themselves). Right now, a 4 man squad trying to cross the line in this game have a pretty hard time. The 4 guys are just too hard to all hide at the same time, i suggest cutting down the size of the unit to 2 man and giving them the ostheer's sniper cloak that lets you stay invisible for a few seconds after leaving cover. They aren't really a combat unit after all so there isn't much to loose. Once the airborn arrives, they could still take potshots at the enemy when they are engaged. Cutting down the unit size could also reduce this unit's cost.
  
  
• It was suggested that they get the designated marskman skill from vCoH. for a few munition you get one normal sniper shot. It's really just a supportive ability that could be used in conjonction with your paras (Synergy!). MOAR munition usage for Merica, let's show em what real firepower is!
  

57mm AT gun and .50s :

• 
  the 50s cheaper price is kinda nice, but the 57mm is priced the same price as the manned one. Theses call-in usually bleed you of MP pretty quickly. One solution that was proposed was to price them with ammo or fuel since you usually have more of those than MP. If you count the price of 4 reinforcement at 28MP each we have an extra cost of 112 MP for the 57mm and about 100 for the .50 that's alot for getting a weapon dropped from a big noisy plane that could still destroy the item on landing.
  

Paratroopers:

• Once upgraded, the Paras start to be similar in DPS to other elite troops but this upgrade comes at the price of 90/120 munitions, not a small one considering alot of units come factory new full of SMGs or ARs. The problem is that this squad really dosen't have sufficient firepower to deal with the situation it is thrown at, unless upgraded, so it makes it kind of mendatory, but long this upgrade takes a while to come in. If they could have something like instant upgrade/faster upgrade or any other idea, it wouldn't be a problem anymore.
  
  
• Paras with thompsons cannot equip bazookas while the ones from the recon support can and so any other unit with a full smg squad. So it might be a bug considering this.
  
  
• We don't whant these guys to be too sturdy so they can't go up front like rifleman (To remove some overlapping). But at the same time they have to hold some defensive position while waiting for the main force so giving some kind of slight buff when being in cover and less armor while being in the open sounds like a decent compromise.
  
• These guys need some kind of stuff that goes boom to create some ambushes. I remember building trenches back in vCoH with the commandos, plant an explosive in it, bait my enemy in it and boom they go... once i killed 3 elite squads in one hit, love that thing. The paras actually have the tool for that, the timed explosive, but it's litteraly useless. Aside from the osteer's bunkers (you know those on another front, which i don't think they one hit anyways) there is nothing to use that on. Making it remote detonated like the rest or make it a good old satchell and we are back in business.
  
  
• Some smoke grenades to close in the gap or retreat is a must for this kind of unit that relies on the element of surprise. It gives them more tactical flexibility, something they could use while operating behind enemy lines.
  
  
• Oh i almost forgot, making them 2 cp instead of 3 could be a good thing since they are always pretty late for an harashing unit and by that time you already have a good number of high level rifleman that you probably don't whant to get rid of. Shocks come at 2 and they are a front line unit plus from what i noticed, the US dosen't get any XP from upgrading it's tech, so it takes even longer to reach 3 CP. I tried to play Americans and russians to see who gets to what level faster and here are the numbers : Americans: 2CP: 5:33 - 3CP: 9:20 - Russians: 2CP:4:40 - 3CP 6:20 we can see there is a big time difference between the moment the shock troops arrive and the moment the paras arrive, even at 2CP those that should arrive first arrive last.
  
  
• More Wishly stuff : Being dropped behind the enemy lines means you have very little equipement with you. Paras were pretty ingenious and good scavangers, they had to rely on it after all. Here's a skill idea to reflect that: Temporary gun crewing. Let 3 member of the squad get on the gun but still be in the squad, both part of the squad have to stay within a certain radius and when you are done, you can dismount from the gun and get your full squad back.This would fix some of the MP bleeding caused by crewing one of your freshly dropped gun and having to fill the airborn squad because a 3 man squad is pretty useless for the firepower they have.
  
  
• Add to that an ability to sabotage the gun they were mounted on which would make it explode or stop functionning the next time someone tries to use it. This would open up some interesting gameplay in case your position is compromised (which would happen often with the kind of situations the Paras are being thrown at. Germans can already plant booby traps around the map with no draw back to themselves. Here you have to destroy our own weapon for it to work.
  One of the paras job is to disrupt the enemy and survive until the main force arrives against all odds. It was suggested to give them a bonus when facing multiple enemies at once, i'd personaly go for a buff in firepower or defence while being in cover to prevent certain abuses. This is debatable.
  

Conclusion:
That's it folks, i tried to inject back some life into this commander to help him do his job of harassing, ambushing, recon and the like. Hiting hard and fast but maybe not staying for the rest of the fight. So what do you think? Let's discuss, i'd be eager to see my favorite company being original and fun to play rather than just having somewhat better rifleman and airdropped guns.

I really do not care for the design changes or suggestions, but just balance wise a few comments:

Pathfinders actually have a lot of damage. They are somewhat a glass cannon, but their headshot criticals (Instakill any entity below 40% health) really make up for that, especially if they are giving long range fire support to charging infantry.

Paratroopers are quite overperforming at the moment in my opinion. Let's first look at the upgrades - the M1919A6 is having the same DPS as the LMG42, but the para version can be fired on the move and has suppression. The Thompson greatly increases their firepower in a range they are already strong. I think it's the less useful of the two upgrades as it only really shines on close combat maps. Now the basic Paratrooper entity is somewhat similar to the normal Riflemen. Same cost, same stats, but a weapon that is more focused on close range and better on the move. The squad does lack some of the Rifles general purpose abilities (smoke, AT-Rifle grenade), but has a grenade that does not need to be researched. Besides that near beacons they can reinforce on the field and at vet2 they actually get self healing, so unless you need to hard retreat you can keep them on the field pretty well.

"Now some people compared these guys to UberSoldaten (lol), Shocks and PzGren. After checking the numbers, unupgraded they have the lowest DPS of all these guys and only have frags"
This is only true to a degree. Compared to PGrens they have a bit less close range, a lot less midrange and more long range damage. Yet keep in mind that Paratroopers are also a bit more resilient (6 entities instead of 4 / .75 = 5.33 entities roughly). PGrens are overperforming at the moment, so I'd be careful taking too much out of that comparison.
Compared to Shocks they deal a lot less damage below ~13 range (from 60% to roughly 30% depending on range), but far more on any ranges above. I think that's acceptable and simply different weapon profiles. Shocks are definitely harder to kill with their 1.5 armor, but at 380 MP vs 336 MP are also more expensive. They also lack the upgrades. If the squad is upgraded with Thompsons, they have pretty much the same close range damage, but a bit less at 10 range due to the different profiles.

I'll only make the comparison to Obersoldaten with the M1919A6 upgrade researched, since otherwise you have a short range focused vs a long range focused squad which is hard to compare. With the M1919A6 they deal slightly less damage on long range (24 instead of 27), but a lot more close range damage (46 vs 33). Both squads have roughly the same HP, behavior (LMG firing on the move) and also DPS drop upon entity losses. So those two units are actually really really similar in performance. The difference is Obers have .5 instead of .4 accuracy vs retreating squads, but Paras are cheaper to maintain and suppress. In most 1v1 trials on long range I made the Paras actually one as the Obers were suppressed at some point (even w/o the ability).

I thought pgrens had 15 less received accuracy as opposed to 25% in your calculations milka?

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They actually have 25. Guess the changelog is wrong.

Well the whole idea of this post is to make the airborne company... airborne again. But thanks anyways for your inputs. I know the LMG is pretty good but didn't they nerf it last patch? In any case, you can get it with your rifleman too. The point really is, here, to bring them away from rifleman and offer a different playstyle (akind to the one they had originaly, if not more interesting)

Edit: I don't like to draw too many parallels between different nations as they often have a different tech tree, ressource input, etc... So i try to keep em to a minimum unless i can build a good argumentation like the time it takes to get 2 and 3 CP between americans and russians.

I dont know why the Paras cant compete with obers with a 380vs400 cost,having to paradrop,and requiring a 120 muni upgrade AND a doctrine,that,if they decide not to get ,they are LITERALLY pointless to get.

Yes they definitely need to be nerfed. YUP.

I dont know why the Paras cant compete with obers with a 380vs400 cost,having to paradrop,and requiring a 120 muni upgrade AND a doctrine,that,if they decide not to get ,they are LITERALLY pointless to get.

Yes they definitely need to be nerfed. YUP.

I have a hard time understanding what you mean, no one asked for a nerf. Milka only brought some numbers to the topic which are interesting.

I have 3 problems with the Airborne commander;

1. The heavy weapons drops are overpriced. I feel like Relic priced these with having a crew dropping with them in mind. Tactical drops are absolutely out of the question in any fights and if it's available to you you're better off just buying from base.

2. The P-47 is overpriced as hell. I never see it do anything and it's an ability I always regret using, especially in 1v1.

3. Paratroopers don't really have a role. If I wanted CQC shock troops, I'd use BAR'd Riflemen. If I wanted long range DPS, I'd use the Infantry Company and get M1919s. Paratroopers succeed at being megariflemen, but that isn't something the USF needs. If we got Rangers back and jacked up the price I'd be more than happy, but right now there's not much I feel I can actually do with Paras that I can't do with Rifles. Hell, they don't even have Smoke Grenades.

If 1 + 2 got fixed, I'd say Airborne is fine, but Paras I do feel lack a real role.

I have 3 problems with the Airborne commander;

1. The heavy weapons drops are overpriced. I feel like Relic priced these with having a crew dropping with them in mind. Tactical drops are absolutely out of the question in any fights and if it's available to you you're better off just buying from base.

2. The P-47 is overpriced as hell. I never see it do anything and it's an ability I always regret using, especially in 1v1.

3. Paratroopers don't really have a role. If I wanted CQC shock troops, I'd use BAR'd Riflemen. If I wanted long range DPS, I'd use the Infantry Company and get M1919s. Paratroopers succeed at being megariflemen, but that isn't something the USF needs. If we got Rangers back and jacked up the price I'd be more than happy, but right now there's not much I feel I can actually do with Paras that I can't do with Rifles. Hell, they don't even have Smoke Grenades.

If 1 + 2 got fixed, I'd say Airborne is fine, but Paras I do feel lack a real role.

I pretty much agree with everything. But i hardly ever get the chance to use the P-47, it looked decent for the times i could use them (if it dosen't get shotdown by those idle building of the OKW).

The point you made about rifleman is exactly my problem : glorified rifleman. Which comes to counter the idea that rifleman should be the backbone of your army. They really need a role for themselves to fill.

But i'll still stand my ground that pathfinders would make more sens if they were downgraded in size and gave a much more proeminient recon role and a sporadic support role.

I think you should try to better understand how the Airborne commander works now rather than mold it into its vCoh version or what you think qualifies as Airborne.

For one thing you keep bringing up the harassing part which is very much secondary in the current implementation. You have to consider that if they're not that good at harassing then it's probably because they're not intended to.

The Airborne excel at maintaining a strong and adaptable field presence and scouting.

They're also good at delivering the final blow. For example when a tank takes engine damage, it becomes P47 bait. When a forward building is left unguarded, they can plant their demo charge. They're opportunists more than anything.

I have a hard time understanding what you mean, no one asked for a nerf. Milka only brought some numbers to the topic which are interesting.

He said they are overperforming. which they aren't. the rest of my post was sarcasm

I do agree with your points though,im also a big fan of the airborne doc.
Paras need that ass engy demo charge,or a big buff to the one they have now.,and maybe thompsons out the gate with upgrade to m1919.
They need some love. They are just riflemen out the air currently(Even with the m1919). nothing Paratroopy about them except the parachute.

I consider airborne a good doctrine but the P47 is almost worthless. It makes one reliable pass but that's it. So it's a doctrine with 4 abilities to me. The munitions used on the P47 would be better served getting weapons upgrades.

I believe the idea behind this doctrine is to quickly drop support weapons and infantry when they are needed and during desperate situations. This is why the support weapons and paras are all priced at a premium.

Overall, this doctrine, more so than others help maintain a continuous front line on the VPs without having forced retreats and costly (time/circumstance wise) delays in reinforcement.

The paratroopers are not the main force. The main forces are still officers and rifles. The paras and support weapons are the supplementary force that you call in when you're on the ropes. Then you reinforce everything with the ambulance.

I think you should try to better understand how the Airborne commander works now rather than mold it into its vCoh version or what you think qualifies as Airborne.

For one thing you keep bringing up the harassing part which is very much secondary in the current implementation. You have to consider that if they're not that good at harassing then it's probably because they're not intended to.

The Airborne excel at maintaining a strong and adaptable field presence and scouting.

They're also good at delivering the final blow. For example when a tank takes engine damage, it becomes P47 bait. When a forward building is left unguarded, they can plant their demo charge. They're opportunists more than anything.

Your post kind of contradict itself. For once you say they aren't harashers but they are opportunists. Like plating a demo charge on an abandonned forward building. But isn't that harassing? And what forward building can the OKW build that would be attackable by such a device? Also if the place is ungarded it might be because your enemy isn't too good so the paras should be good against bad enemies?

And how can they be more adaptable than rifleman while having less abilities? They can't really keep a strong battlefield presence either with those overpriced weapons drops.

You did bring up scouting like i did. This is why i suggested some changes to the pathfinders to actually make them better at this job. That 4 man squad really is a pain to hide.

He said they are overperforming. which they aren't. the rest of my post was sarcasm

I do agree with your points though,im also a big fan of the airborne doc.
Paras need that ass engy demo charge,or a big buff to the one they have now.,and maybe thompsons out the gate with upgrade to m1919.
They need some love. They are just riflemen out the air currently(Even with the m1919). nothing Paratroopy about them except the parachute.

Actually he said that PzGrens were overperforming. And don't worry, i did notice the sarcasm.
Yea not much paratroopy about them. But a satchel instead of a demo charge seems decent, satchels can clear buildings and one hit bunkers.

@coh2player: if they are about reinforcing your main line, why do they bother having pathfinders? Their whole purpose IRL was to go ahead of the army and recon the drop zone (which was behind the enemy line). It's a really interesting gameplay mechanic and it shows their intention with this. They whanted to make a company that would be able to operate behind enemy lines for a decent amount of time.

Also, what's the use of a company that can react to hard situation for your main force and named ariborne? It,s counter intuitive and never was the primary use of this company since the debut of this serie. I Could also just select a company that would instead not force me into desperate situation and better support a front line.

I agree, they are underwhelming. Some special abilities would make them more interesting. Pathfinders also don't impress me for their cost.

Actually he said that PzGrens were overperforming. And don't worry, i did notice the sarcasm.
Yea not much paratroopy about them. But a satchel instead of a demo charge seems decent, satchels can clear buildings and one hit bunkers.

Also,if pathfinders came out of buildings like fallschims that would be really cool and would buff this doctrine a TON. and it would make "sense" from a pathfinder sense.

Its really hard to move them behind enemy lines in a serious evenly matched game. the maps are not THAT well designed to where you can sneak under a bridge or something and move around.

Or make pathfinders paradrop...

or make them cloak like the german sniper.

and,

Milkacow said,
"Paratroopers are quite overperforming at the moment in my opinion."

In the matches I've used only 1 pathfinder squad, and mainly to extend line of sight for the rifles/officers.

In early game, I have been dropping HMGs right off the bat and then crewing them with rifles. The added cost of the support weapons is easily negated by their timeliness to me.

In mid game, I drop AT guns and often do not even unlock the captain (go straight for the major, then the sherman)

With paras, I drop them as infrequently as possible and maybe get 2 squads out to reinforce a push or reinforce a defense.

In sum, the most important thing about Airborne to me are the HMGs and the AT guns.

@coh2player: if they are about reinforcing your main line, why do they bother having pathfinders? Their whole purpose IRL was to go ahead of the army and recon the drop zone (which was behind the enemy line). It's a really interesting gameplay mechanic and it shows their intention with this. They whanted to make a company that would be able to operate behind enemy lines for a decent amount of time.

Also, what's the use of a company that can react to hard situation for your main force and named ariborne? It,s counter intuitive and never was the primary use of this company since the debut of this serie. I Could also just select a company that would instead not force me into desperate situation and better support a front line.

I can see how you want them to be the main force, and raiders of sorts like the Fallschirms. I agree that doing this does not really work with US airborne, as the paras don't have the firepower right off the bat to do so. They need the 120 muni upgrade which is often not available.

The way I use them is usually twofold. Either I have the paras in their defensive role, being able to reinforce on the field and just hold a certain position. Their M1919A6 is perfect for the role, but also the beacon reinforcing and the passive out of combat heal.
The alternative use is having them as units dropped behind enemy lines. Got an Ostheer player investing heavily in support weapons? Drop behind his line. Have an Oberkommnado player heavily investing in high value elite troops? Defensive line and drop Airborne behind his line to try to wipe the retreating units or destroy his trucks. If he has a lot of high value units he needs to split and put a far more valuable squad to defend. After those drops behind enemy lines I usually retreat them and use them more or less similar to normal Riflemen (with the few bonuses that they actually perform better per cost).

@Cookiezncreem:
Paratroopers are ~336 manpower. Without the upgrade they perform fine for their cost, with the upgrade they overperform. They are one of the units which have an opportunity cost added to them (like Fallschirmjäger or Assault Grens). This means you pay a bit extra to call them in (60MP for Fallschirms, ~45MP for Paras).

What if the thompson upgrade gave the squad the ability to sprint, to help them get into their effective range? This would also give them more utility to get out of sticky situations that are inherent in a squad the must get in close to function optimally.

Anyone ever try manning MGs or AT guns with Pathfinders? The uber line of sight they get carries over so your guns always fire at max range / harder to flank and you don't need a spotter. Yes they cost more to reinforce but it's worth the cost.