Balance Changes

If the FHT gets moved back to T2, the forums would erupt in tears. Maxim Spam wouldn't be viable anymore

nerf every american soldier and light vehicle but make US tanks not butter plszzsszslsls0l0l0l kappa

US tanks are fine. Sherman is a good all-rounder and the Jackson shreds armor so long as its well microed. I do would appreciate a Pershing somewhere in the mix in the future, a heavy tank would be nice. Or make the Easy Eight non-doctrinal.

NO they are NOT fine. they are only fine because the early game is GREAT with GREAT infantry support. if you gib the infantry with nerfs then really what are the americans? Average infantry with expensive paper tank destroyers,paper SPGs,and tanks that cant fight other tanks without the enemy driving them at you backwards.

HolyHammers back from ze dead!


Now to the balance.
-Overall I feel your pain vindicare, especially with the grenades, but some of these recommended changes would cause the balance to asplode once again. Mostly because you forget about 4-5 patches ago when Grens would roflstomp cons all the time when they got their buff. I know it's hard to navigate with Grens with Riflemen sniping em' most of the time and con blobs running over em'(But I find mgs counter riflemen and cons well, especially riflemen considering they don't have oorah and smoke grenades require an upgrade/work only if you get em off first and micro well). If we were to change Grens we would have to change cons, penals, and riflemen too, so the playing field is even. Problem is it would require a lot of changes. And considering it's Relic, who in my personal experience likes to take the easy route with nerfs/buffs, it would just destroy the already slow but good balance changes implemented. Volks stand an okay chance against riflemen I find, better than Grens which is quite humourous. But the solution would probably be a tiny armor buff for Grens(imo, which should be tested beforehand as balanced*I'm looking at you Relic*). The AA Halftrack does need a nerf, but I'm not sure where, maybe an even lower penetration rate would suffice(For both inf and armor), or something Cruzz can recommend here.(Come to my aid Cruzz)

Who's holyhammer?

Try using a sniper in the Wehr vs American match up, I find that it completely changes the early game dynamic in favour of Wehr.

Anyway I'm iffy about adjusting any sort of infantry at this point. Grenadiers seem competent, for being 40 mp cheaper than Rifles. When you use grenadiers in more of a support role, they tend to do just fine. Trying to go a 3x or 4x gren build against US is just stupid.

Changing riflemen affects the entire game for that faction, although I'd be a-okay with riflemen nerfs if it meant that Rear Echelon Squads and Assault Engineers became more viable. Still, I'm not yet convinced that they're too strong.


As for the halftrack I think you have to be very careful about moving it into t3 because then the only AT option USF has if they go Lieutenant tech is Bazookas. Maybe if you fix their vet 1 vehicle snare this won't be an issue, but I'd be very careful about going crazy on nerfs and changes at this point.


I think you'd be better off toning down the suppression and anti-infantry damage. Bring it more in line with the soviet AA halftrack. Maybe fuck around with it's rotation speeds and acceleration, so it's far less maneuverable and more risky to deploy anywhere near AT.

If American early game wasn't so dominant, people would see that American tanks are indeed a bit weak. Their late game often falls flat due to their tanks having low HP (luckily they can usually close out the game before that or mass enough tanks to overwhelm the AT).

In my opinion, Americans must mass tanks late game to compensate for the lack of heavy tanks.

If American early game wasn't so dominant, people would see that American tanks are indeed a bit weak. Their late game often falls flat due to their tanks having low HP (luckily they can usually close out the game before that or mass enough tanks to overwhelm the AT).

In my opinion, Americans must mass tanks late game to compensate for the lack of heavy tanks.

Not that much different than Soviets (especially before t-34's got buffed), outside of doctrinal tanks.

Try using a sniper in the Wehr vs American match up, I find that it completely changes the early game dynamic in favour of Wehr.

Anyway I'm iffy about adjusting any sort of infantry at this point. Grenadiers seem competent, for being 40 mp cheaper than Rifles. When you use grenadiers in more of a support role, they tend to do just fine. Trying to go a 3x or 4x gren build against US is just stupid.

Changing riflemen affects the entire game for that faction, although I'd be a-okay with riflemen nerfs if it meant that Rear Echelon Squads and Assault Engineers became more viable. Still, I'm not yet convinced that they're too strong.


As for the halftrack I think you have to be very careful about moving it into t3 because then the only AT option USF has if they go Lieutenant tech is Bazookas. Maybe if you fix their vet 1 vehicle snare this won't be an issue, but I'd be very careful about going crazy on nerfs and changes at this point.


I think you'd be better off toning down the suppression and anti-infantry damage. Bring it more in line with the soviet AA halftrack. Maybe fuck around with it's rotation speeds and acceleration, so it's far less maneuverable and more risky to deploy anywhere near AT.

You don't understand. I'm not building 3-5 grens because they will lose to riflemen 8 out of 10 times. That leaves MGs and sniper. Early sniper has trouble holding territory so MGs is all I have left to defend. Due to MGs inability to target units unless they are near the center of its arc, defending your territory means you must keep your MGs far back (which is why I said Germans usually have to hide in a corner). If I push out, I'm almost guaranteed to get flanked.

Now the sniper is the one redeeming unit the Wehrmacht has vs Americans. However, the fact that it costs 360 MP means I either delay a pak gun for when the deathmachine AA Halftrack comes out ~ 7 min, or forgo the sniper to get the pak out on time. The sniper also needs to have constant defense - grenadier screening with faust and MGs to stop rifle rushes - further cementing the role of defending a small piece of territory. Now this strategy might not be the end of the wold, but half of the maps make a defense strategy very hard to pull off and only a couple actually favor it. Maybe if I didn't have to face an unstoppable anti everything vehicle 7 min in the game I could get more units to deal with his superior infantry, but I can't since I need an AT gun.

If the Halftrack was with the captain, that means I wouldn't have to face the very anti-infantry potent lieutenant as well as the Halftrack. If they want to go Halftrack, they build the captain, meaning I have more time to prepare for this ridiculously strong vehicle and also have an easier time dealing with the AT focused Captain.

Soviet t1 doesn't have hard AT - the building is purely for anti infantry and utility. The same should be for Americans - where the lieut, car, and MG can provide light AT but mostly provide anti infantry support. It shouldn't be a tier in which you can counter anything the germans can get.

Not that much different than Soviets (especially before t-34's got buffed), outside of doctrinal tanks.

Considering Half the Soviet commanders have tank call ins, and nearly all of them have infantry/tank call-ins, I don't really consider a soviet army limited to basic T34s or Su-85s.

Now the sniper is the one redeeming unit the Wehrmacht has vs Americans. However, the fact that it costs 360 MP means I either delay a pak gun for when the deathmachine AA Halftrack comes out ~ 7 min, or forgo the sniper to get the pak out on time. The sniper also needs to have constant defense - grenadier screening with faust and MGs to stop rifle rushes - further cementing the role of defending a small piece of territory. Now this strategy might not be the end of the wold, but half of the maps make a defense strategy very hard to pull off and only a couple actually favor it.

What I do is build my barracks and then build Sniper first thing. This gets him on the field for the decisive initial engagement (usually 1 gren + 1 sniper vs 1 riflemen) and allows him to force retreats. You have to screen, but it can be very effective for pushing your opponent off the map early on.

Soviet t1 doesn't have hard AT - the building is purely for anti infantry and utility. The same should be for Americans - where the lieut, car, and MG can provide light AT but mostly provide anti infantry support. It shouldn't be a tier in which you can counter anything the germans can get.

They have AT grenades for stalling, doctrinal guard rifles and penal battalion satchel charges which while tricky to land is still an option in a crutch. You also have to consider that they were designed around Wehrmacht t2, which doesn't really have excessively dangerous vehicles that really demanded AT guns. They also have the option of mines, which americans don't really have (Unless we're counting those crappy doctrinal mines?".

So that's 2 hard counters (ATG, mines), 1 doctrinal counter and then 1 soft counter (Satchel) versus America's Bazookas (hard counter) and M20 Mine (hard counter). Ignoring that an m20 mine cost just as much munitions as an ATG and satchel charge (which is pretty much a guaranteed vehicle kill, much like the mine.)

The m20 crew does have the ability to chase awkwardly I'll grant you that, but that's risky as fuck. Maybe fixing riflemen snare is really all that's needed, since bazookas are quite potent.


I think I'd rather see the halftrack nerfed than traded with the howie. I do think the current meta of practically forcing Wehr into a fast pak is really shitty, but I'd atleast rather see small tweaks first before massive changes.

Gotta agree with VindicareX, not only are you under immense pressure early-game, but you also have to anticipate the gg-machine coming out, blowing up your 222's and pinning all your infantry in one fell swoop. If you don't, you'll likely lose, if you do, you still might lose.

If the Quadmount and Flame Half-Track are both T3, why is this death machine, superior to both aforementioned Half-Tracks, in T2?

I think what needs to be changed mainly are the obersoladaten and the American m1919 danger they are both to high and renders infantry obsolete. Vehicle came out way to early especially the aa halftrack and riflemen needs a nerf on their long range space.

Considering Half the Soviet commanders have tank call ins, and nearly all of them have infantry/tank call-ins, I don't really consider a soviet army limited to basic T34s or Su-85s.

Except when you are like me and you want to use all your commanders from time to time and not just guards motor and shock rifle tactics. Then your lategame is suddenly restricted to only T34/76s.

My 2v2s almost entirely revolve around getting the AAHT out and reversing into enemy lines with it. If you stop and think about this, it's incredibly silly. But realistically if I can't dominate the game early on, the probability of actaully being able to win plummets.

how about simply reducing riflemen long range damage profile a bit?

I feel like no one is actually reading Vindicare's post...

Lastly, on VonIvan's thoughts on mg42's vs Rifles, it is really hit or miss. mg42's have several mechanical issues that make them suffer versus infantry:
1) if an infantry flanks and is not perfectly at max range and the middle of 42's arc of fire, the MG has large problems trying to target these infantry (1-2 seconds lock on at times), which allows the infantry to just walk out of fire
2) Rifles are very good at sniping models, and watching your MG crew walk to the gun just to die is painful.

Watching my MGs getting picked off like Riflemen are snipers is PAINFUL. 2 squads focus fire on that and they just dominate even if the MG is supported.

Bring back target tables!

how about simply reducing riflemen long range damage profile a bit?

I think this is the best go , would bring some vcoh dynamics back i guess . if rifles are actually likely to lose on longrange this might help

Watching my MGs getting picked off like Riflemen are snipers is PAINFUL. 2 squads focus fire on that and they just dominate even if the MG is supported.

I agree, I was always against the 25% damage bonus weapon crews take.

You have to use mg's very cautiously with cover. Garrison cover is damn near necessary.

If the Quadmount and Flame Half-Track are both T3, why is this death machine, superior to both aforementioned Half-Tracks, in T2?

They're upgrades for existing halftracks that provide reinforcement in addition to their weapon.