Rear Echelon troops

If you spam RE's you'll only have like 1 or 2 squads that can actually kill things (Lt and Captain). RE's can't kill anything and I doubt they can hold long enough. Volley Fire has a pretty long recharge time too.

dont agree OP,
Against and with RET on many occasions they have gotten absoulutely mowed down by Sturm pios and other cute things before the suppression even set in.(or is even available) Green cover slows down the suppression by a bunch.

usually the only time suppression is instant and painful is when you arent in good cover or you're outnumbered

Rear Echelons are perfectly fine. If you nerf their volley, it wildly unbalances the USA vs OKW match up. Equipping a heavy weapon on them is hardly ever worth it due to how squishy they are, unless they're vet 3.

If you're complaining about a Bazooka RE killing your car, you have other problems. Namely the utter incapability to micromanage your units and capitalize on economic edge.

REs are the quintessential support unit. You put them at the back to support your Riflemen. They fail at anything else.

Zero damage, zero durability, one actual use. Probably the most balanced unit I've seen from WFA.

There is a better middle ground for Volley fire than what it is right now. It is an suppression machine that makes early game battles against the US nearly impossible.

I don't think that the Kubelwagon is a good "Rear Echelon Spam" counter. Rear Echelons can easily kill Kubelwagons with a flank almost as well as Riflemen. Presumably their weakness is a lack of accuracy and the Kubelwagon is an easy target. Rear Echelon Spam fields like ~8-9 units in the first few minutes so flanking Kubelwagons and overwhelming them would be trivial.

Let me be clear: I don't actually think Rear Echelon spam is really optimal or even necessarily viable. I haven't fought it yet. This unit is entirely too effective as a support unit for Riflemen/Assault Engineers right now though.

20 munitions for an ability this good is insane. What is just as insane is that the volley is actually a huge aoe, if you have any other units within like 10 range of the one being volleyd, they get pinned as well.

Ramping up the ammo cost too much will just mean it will never be used. I'd rather see the ability last a duration and when it ends the suppression ends.

Increasing the cost would actually help as it right now wins an engagement as well/better than a grenade early game. Yet it is cheaper. Volley Fire doesn't necessarily inflict manpower damage but neither does a grenade.

Both deny the enemy positioning and time to fight back but Volley Fire is more effective and can be used at a far greater number of ranges.

I would easily pay 30 munitions for this power as it currently stands. Perhaps even 40. I would then actually have to think about if I wanted to use it though.

i would like only to see this ability be less efective vs units in cover like normal mgs - its stupid to have your units instant pinned while behind green cover

I like equipping RE with Bazookas so you don't lose anti infantry fire power, but upgrading RE with Bars and M1919 is kinda silly, the squad is just too squishy and the upgrade weapon won't make up for the other 75% of the squad having dreadful damage. Riflemen also have much better utility with nades and veterency scaling.

Volley fire is kind a silly though, I would like to see it get a nerf on the effectiveness of Volley fire, Currently Volley fire is just a 20munitions win engagement button and the only room for counterplay by the German is take a garrison.

Increasing the cost so it's never used again is a boring change, the best change would be to increase a level of dynamic and interaction to make it counterable. Make it be very weak at suppressing units behind cover or at range, but keep the same level of fast supression to units in the open. That way the German has a chance to react by just staying behind cover, but then Volley fire can be used as a tool to stop Sturmpioneer assaults or anything else out of position.

If volley gets nerfed too much I'd hope to see RE get a DPS buff to compensate, because at the moment they're awful volley fodder. You don't even need them to repair since you have tank crews, nor do you need them to tech up since the buildings are already there. You don't even need them for mines since they can't plant them. As it stands Rear Echelon are basically just... minesweeper and fuel cache Echelon.

In the Alpha Rear Echelon Volley Fire was far more reasonable. The suppression was very weak at long and medium range. It would almost never pin units at medium range unless they were in negative cover. It would almost never to suppress any troops who were using cover unless you had flanked them or were at point blank range.

It did pin units exceptionally fast at close range. Volley Fire was a 20 munitions insurance against enemy charges. Assault Grenadiers and Sturmpioneers who got overconfident and tried to rush down your troops would be pinned by Volley Fire. That was it's purpose and it was good. You could even pull some neat tricks as you got more familiar with the ability. A Rear Echelon squad that flanked an enemy MG42 team could pop the ability and suppress the squad. A suppressed MG-42 doesn't suppress Riflemen so it became useless. It cannot re-position fast enough to avoid getting flanked due to the suppression. It would force a retreat if you used it well.

There were nice applications to this power that felt reasonable at 20 munitions.

Now it feels like a ridiculous ability that one is rewarded with using at every conceivable opportunity. I basically use this power on cooldown.

I also contest that Rear Echelon troops are really supposed to anything else than Volley fire. They are for:

• Recrewing guns. They are the cheapest to reinforce at 20 manpower.
  
• Volley fire. Even if the ability is nerfed down it will still have applications against charging troops.
  
• Switching with Vehicle Crews. Good for crews like the Ambulance and M20 Utility Car that have unique crews. Good for Mechanized Company who wants to Withdraw and Refit a vehicle but doesn't want to lose experienced crews in the tank. Good for Armored Company who wants to use Vehicle Crews w/Thompsons.
  
• Offering a good platform for Bazookas.
  
• Constructing their various buildings and entrenchments.
  
• Manning Fighting Positions and using their Rifle-grenade.
  

I don't buy that RE troops lack purpose given their 160 cost.

So rear echelons 20 suppresion is OP but free suppresion from Kubel is ok ? if rear will be nerfed so do Kubel - that it is very fast and in right hands much better than echelons.
I smell bias.

So rear echelons 20 suppresion is OP but free suppresion from Kubel is ok ? if rear will be nerfed so do Kubel - that it is very fast and in right hands much better than echelons.
I smell bias.

The Kubel is a machine gun platform, that's what it is designed to do. The US has easy access to smoke grenades to deal with it and it will rarely survive past 8 minutes into the game. There is a problem when it is better to use an engineers suppression ability than the dedicated suppression unit for the US faction.

I agree with RE 20 munition suppression is too low. This unit can suppress multiple units in heavy cover and allow much smaller forces to beat off better positioned and diverse groups. Up its cost and reduce its effect.

@franko, you are comparing too completely different units as if they are completely equivalent it makes no sense. It's like saying this car is faster than this truck but the truck costs more how can that be?

Just because both cause suppression does not make them equivalent.

So rear echelons 20 suppresion is OP but free suppresion from Kubel is ok ? if rear will be nerfed so do Kubel - that it is very fast and in right hands much better than echelons.
I smell bias.

Kubel costs 80 MP more, and is easier to kill (if you flank it) + it cannot capture territory, equip with a bazooka or repair other vehicles.


Comparing the two is abit daft....

My OP is basically claiming that currently RE's over-perform.

Which would be awesome if the RE troops couldnt get a bazooka in 2 mins with the 15 fuel upgrade.

its cost 15fuel plus 60 mun which is not cheap

Usf would not stand chance against okw with out volly in the early game(1st few mins), sturm pios would have a free for all. Do agree it is very effective, maybe change the time for volly to suppress or green cover is not effect by volly?

its cost 15fuel plus 60 mun which is not cheap

they start off with the fuel to buy the research, so as soon as they hit 60 ammo they can get it if needed.... (is pretty cheap)

USF would... rifle men are like the best base infantry. Outa volks, grens, cons... they do really well. They also own surmpio's if used properly.

While i do think that Rear Echalon should have a suppress... it should not be nearly as effective as it is...

Suggested fixes would be ONE of the following...

- 30 Munis cost.
- Range makes it less effective, 100% close, 50% mid 25% long
- They do not pin, only suppress, (gives the target unit chance to counter with a nade or smoke)
- It lasts less time and doesn't pin other squads around the target squad.

I'm unclear on how they would have the 60 ammo they need to get bazookas early on if they were spamming volley fire to win infantry engagements.

I'm unclear on how they would have the 60 ammo they need to get bazookas early on if they were spamming volley fire to win infantry engagements.

simply put ; map control. 4 RE are cheap and can take fast swats of land all the while winning early engagements. this gives them an economic advantage to fasttech to the quad and bazooka's

It would be fine with a slight muni increase, if your units are supporting each other its not really a problem.

i find it funny how rear echelon are the only troops that can suppress, considering they use m1 carbines, and other squads with fully auto weapons cant suppress.