Relic, let's talk about Sturmpios in the OKW vs USA Match-Up

Ignoring the fact that Sturmpios will straight up beat any early game American infantry out in the open, and ignoring the fact that their damage output totally overshadows Volksgrenadiers, Sturmpioneers have a real big problem, primarily in the American matchup.

Americans have no hard building counter, no flamethrower. Their grenades are not strong enough to compensate for that fact.

Sturmpioneers in a buildings are virtually impossible to dislodge. Their damage output is insane(I don't know who thought it was a good idea to give the starting unit STG44s), and Americans have no way to put them out of a building. It requires an immediate investment into the Grenade package - which isn't economically possible. It then requires you to have the munitions available to throw 2-3 grenades, which means you need 2-3 Riflemen. Which isn't possible.

And during that, they're securing map control and you probably wont even get a squad kill out of it.

Sturmpioneers with their damage output against the Americans when they are in a building are batshit-insane OP. If you put that in context with the rest of the OKW, it is a legitimately unfair, and arguably unwinnable, match up.

Riflemen are a good frontline backbone unit, but they can't stick up to Sturmpioneers. In relation to manpower cost purely, that is arguably fair. But this leads to a total irrelevance of Volksgrens(Which makes Sturmpios internally OP) as well as a nigh-on impossible firepower disparity for the Americans to overcome in the early game.

And yes, Americans can put out a lot of damage in the mid game with BARs, amongst other things, but if OKW knows what it's doing, the game's effectively over by then.

OKW is an extremely map-dependent faction, and where the match up is balanced in more open maps, maps such as Stalingrad or anywhere where buildings play a focal point in controlling key points, it is heavily OKW favoured, and it is because of Sturmpioneers and how little Americans have in the way of early game counters.

I can live with the truck pushing(Well, not really that shit needs to be fixed), I can live with the heavy MG bike that suppresses me and does shit tonnes of damage, I can deal with things like Obersoldaten, I can deal with that ridiculously durable half-track with the Autocannon that does damage to vehicles on it(BTW it can straight up 1v1 a Stuart as well as rape infantry), but, fuck, the early game is so skewed towards OKW it isn't even fair.

OKW stand a very real chance of doing to CoH2 what the Brits did to CoH1, and honestly Relic should be afraid of that. I would rather an underpowered OKW that gets gradually buffed as opposed to an overpowered one that totally fucks balance for the next 6 months, and I think nearly everyone would agree with me in that regard.

I'm not going to shit on Relic here and say "Hurr Durr Relic y u so bad at this so ez", but really this feels like it has not been tested. Which is weird, because it has been thoroughly tested.

I know people are going to tell me "OMG game out for 2 days just calm down and l2p" and frankly, normally I'd agree with that kind of sentiment, but these are factional design issues that do not get fixed with time. They need to be addressed in a rather pressing manner or Relic is simply going to lose all the population is gained with WFA release.

My suggestions would be as follows;

Americans need an early game building counter. Whether that means making their grenades far more potent(This would be my preferable solution) or accessible far earlier(Or even straight off) or giving them access to Flamethrowers(Which would keep in line with design of Wehr/Sov), I don't know. But they absolutely need something. It gives Wehr(And OKW particularly) far too much map control.

Sturmpioneers need to be nerfed. Volksgrens are comparatively useless, and Sturmpios are essentially Panzergrenadiers. I get that you want them to be stronger than all the other starting units, and that their economy reflects that, but it's simply not good early game combat balance, and if the early game isn't balanced, then the game in general is not balanced.

http://www.coh2.org/topic/18874/official-sturmpioneer-thread

I cant imagine you missed this topic?

This has enough content and is specific enough to warrant its own thread.

use volley fire.

Rear echelon can pin sturmpioneer for half a minute with volley fire.

use rifleman in cover.

use volley fire.

This.

USF have zero problems against sturm pios.

Did any of you read the thread or did you just see "Sturmpio" and ignore it?

1. Riflemen in cover lose to garrisoned units

2. Volley Fire does not work on garrisoned units

Now, outside of buildings, fair enough. That doesn't even get even remotely close to addressing the main thrust of the thread.

P.S. Katitof the picture in your sig isn't there anymore. RIP.

Engage 2v1

Not really an issue as rifleman has some the best close combat potential of any rifle squad.

1. Riflemen in cover lose to garrisoned units

2. Volley Fire does not work on garrisoned units

research grenades.

research grenades.

Read the thread.

sturmpios are a glass cannon unit.

US dont have any problems with that guys.


L2P

Make a too long, didn't read version.

Read the thread.

OKW have just as much trouble dislodging US/Sov units from buildings too. It's a strange choice to be honest. Volks are pretty poor, considering their grenade costs a small fortune in OKW economy, Sturms do okay if they can get close, but need another unit to draw fire to do so. Kubel Wagon? GET IT AWAY FROM GARRISONED UNITS.

I understand the issue, but I guess it's the same for any garrisoned unit. If they try to hole up and you don't have superior forces, just move away and cap elsewhere. He'll either have to give chase or leave his 320MP sitting in a building playing cards.

OKW have just as much trouble dislodging US/Sov units from buildings too. It's a strange choice to be honest. Volks are pretty poor, considering their grenade costs a small fortune in OKW economy, Sturms do okay if they can get close, but need another unit to draw fire to do so. Kubel Wagon? GET IT AWAY FROM GARRISONED UNITS.

I understand the issue, but I guess it's the same for any garrisoned unit. If they try to hole up and you don't have superior forces, just move away and cap elsewhere. He'll either have to give chase or leave his 320MP sitting in a building playing cards.

OKW's engineer is a combat combat squad because they have no standard infantry that can do the same job. RE counter it, and if it goes in a building, use grenades or walk away because its holed up and useless. Seriously, the RE's volley fire is annoying as hell for only 20 munitions; use it.

So yes, sturmpioneers are justified because volks wont be able to do anything.

We tested sturms for like three months and I don't think anyone had an issue with them after the first few days of playing. They really are fine as a starting unit. Just avoid the one building with sturms in it until you get an mg or vehicle, both of which can come really early.


I also have to disagree with you on Volks. Sure they don't have the firepower of Rifles, but they're freaking good once you earn them vet. It's interesting to me how many people so far think volks suck when I think they're the most efficient infantry squad in the game.

Basically, just play smarter, adapt etc etc. Without volks okw early game would be screwed even more than it is. They're super glass cannon and if you're having a problem killing them with rifles, you're doing something wrong. Rifles have the best overall stats of all non elite infantry, and arguably the best with double BARs.

totally agreed with Ciez.It would be cool if people played more then 10 minutes with/against OBW before calling them OP.

Sturmpios are pain in the ass but best solution is to stay in green cover and when sturmpios approaches you then retreat, you should at least kill one guy, when you have echelon squad near then use volley fire, this stuff can even suppress Panzergrens and obersoldats in seconds

totally agreed with Ciez.It would be cool if people played more then 10 minutes with/against OBW before calling them OP.

Exactly.

Official forums are even more hillarious.

"I've lost my first game to a unit I've never seen before. I know nothing about the unit or the army, but I know its OP and needs a nerf, I can't be wrong, because I'm obviously #1 pro"

This is what all balance threads about new armies are now.