Broken balance - Soviets vs OKW

There's your problem. Stop trying to Raketenwerfer against M3's, it absolutely seems like the intuitive counter but it's not.

So I believe you have better options, please tell us

I would suggest a fast Mechanized Regiment HQ start if you see Soviet Tier 1. Use your truck to scout his base. If you see T1 then you've got a clear flag to grab a fast vehicle.

The 251/17 Flak-Track will help zone enemy M3A1s. The minimum range makes it dangerous to be alone but as a support weapon it is good if unreliable.

If you don't like that then go straight for a Puma. That will punish M3A1s pretty fast. Both of these units are also resistant to Sniper so you'll have an edge there.

This is the best strategy against mass M3A1s I think.

Against one M3A1 you can use more conventional "Wehrmacht" tactics of keeping them away with MG-34s if you go Luftwaffe doctrine. If they attempt to flank you need to have a unit like Sturmpioneers ready to punish his flank. Otherwise you have to suffer through it until Panzerschrecks come online or you get your light armor up.

The M3A1 tends to be dead-weight mid game as Panzerschrecks come online and hurts the Soviet's capping power. It's a matter of survival and it is brutal.

I also don't like the Raketenwerfer but I think it is a good idea if you are seeing 2+ M3A1s.

Easy to say, harder to do, don't forget that OKW has reduced resources income, so first flak would come around 7-8 min, if your enemy harrassed you so much that you don't have much income and at this time he can get guards that counters flak

If you start with 3 pios and a volk/kübel you can bring out your flak 251 before the 5 minute mark with fuel conversion at T2. And guards can't counter the flak 251 well.

But if the OKW player can survive this, he still has to fight against hordes of soviet tanks and mines.

ahh, forgot that the truck with flak can convert resources, but still flak can be countered by guards, obviously not in open field but in building or green cover for sure, M3's are providing a great counter to sturmpios and they are expensive to build and then to reinforce.

I'm still thinking how OKW can survive playing vs soviet windustry doctrine

Well i don't agree with Barton this time.

We played many team matchs (4vs4 and 3vs3) OKW vs Sov and a mixed.

Yes M3 are scary at first. It won 2 games in row, before they had to change tactics.

But the M3 rushs were finally fought with improved barbed wires ,Raketenwerfer, early mine, Panzer shreck and using sturmpios in buildings if any available.

Penal's snatchel are also very powerful cause OKW lack good suppression unit.... try them. Better than M3s... Using both in conjunction are deadly... counter with 2 Kübelwagen minimum...

So lets play for another 50 team-matchs and we should be able to see where the balance hurt the fun factor.

Overall i say that the game is a lot more fun !!! thanks Relics see you at the next balance patch.

the only broken thing in this game is the fucking AI; i fight more against my troops than my opponent

or what about units getting frequently stuck? or the mouse disappearing?

of course these are real problems affecting day to day gameplay instead of fairy tales about balance by people who don't play the game, so they ain't a good fit for coh2.org.

We are dealing with a 1v1 problem here, 2v2 and above is a different story.

But yeah Barton, that's my best shot atm vs Sov. Otherwise I just quit the battle. A guy who handles his cars well can't be countered 'till armored vehilces come out, but by that time hordes os soviet tanks are ready.

Sooner or later M3a1s gonna need a huge change, directly or indirectly.

Well i don't agree with Barton this time.

We played many team matchs (4vs4 and 3vs3) OKW vs Sov and a mixed.

Yes M3 are scary at first. It won 2 games in row, before they had to change tactics.

But the M3 rushs were finally fought with improved barbed wires ,Raketenwerfer, early mine, Panzer shreck and using sturmpios in buildings if any available.

Penal's snatchel are also very powerful cause OKW lack good suppression unit.... try them. Better than M3s... Using both in conjunction are deadly... counter with 2 Kübelwagen minimum...

So lets play for another 50 team-matchs and we should be able to see where the balance hurt the fun factor.

Overall i say that the game is a lot more fun !!! thanks Relics see you at the next balance patch.

lol you talking about 4v4's where i just spam the shit out of my enemies with T-70 spam and soon with USA tanks armada. Balance takes only place in 1v1 and 2v2, nobody cares about balance in 3v3 4v4

lol you talking about 4v4's where i just spam the shit out of my enemies with T-70 spam and soon with USA tanks armada. Balance takes only place in 1v1 and 2v2, nobody cares about balance in 3v3 4v4

Too bad for us...
Our group of friends only play 3vs3 or 4vs4.

Begin rant :

1vs1 is for loner in need of finding how good they are....
To play team , one must accept to lose because a teammate screw-up. The human factor add another level of difficulty.

We know our strength and we have friends to play with...so we play team match.
But when we were in our early 20, i play a lot of 1vs1 game to prove myself, so i understand you.

If ever we have a team 4vs4 tournament, we would crush you easy.... as a walk in the park...


Ending rant...

Balance patch will be needed, but it's too early to cry, way to early.

Too bad for us...
Our group of friends only play 3vs3 or 4vs4.

Begin rant :

1vs1 is for loner in need of finding how good they are....
To play team , one must accept to lose because a teammate screw-up. The human factor add another level of difficulty.

We know our strength and we have friends to play with...so we play team match.
But when we were in our early 20, i play a lot of 1vs1 game to prove myself, so i understand you.

If ever we have a team 4vs4 tournament, we would crush you easy.... as a walk in the park...


Ending rant...

Balance patch will be needed, but it's too early to cry, way to early.

what the fook is this

I looks to me that it's vital to rush jagdpanzer IV in 1 v 1 and get 3 x volks w/ panzershrecks.

I looks to me that it's vital to rush jagdpanzer IV in 1 v 1 and get 3 x volks w/ panzershrecks.

And get raped by soviet infantry then, you won't have enought AI firepower too keep the infantry at bay. Shrecks come too late to stop the M3a1 early.

ahh, forgot that the truck with flak can convert resources, but still flak can be countered by guards, obviously not in open field but in building or green cover for sure, M3's are providing a great counter to sturmpios and they are expensive to build and then to reinforce.

I'm still thinking how OKW can survive playing vs soviet windustry doctrine

I'm not saying that the balance is perfect but I think Mechanized Regimental Company offers the best options for dealing with this.

I am going to assume that before CP2 you get the tools you need to kill the M3A1. You can get 251/17 up very quickly with resource conversion.

I am also going to assume that it gets vet 1 because it is cheap and does considerable damage. 251's Vet 1 power is a Smoke Screen power that can protect it from Guards buttoning fire. 251 has greater range than Guards. It has far greater range than it has sight. With the right circumstances and with units screening and scouting for the 251/17 it can act as a good fire support weapon and still battle even when Guards are present.

The Puma also gets smoke immediately for OKW so you can escape buttoning fire from them as well. Puma wrecks the M3A1 so Guards cannot use it to chase. It's a fairly potent defense and the Puma scales up against the T-34 pretty well. You don't want to fight it 1v1 but it can easily turn a fight with support.

If you survive until CP 2-3 you now have better options for dealing with Guards as well. You've sunk fuel into your anti-tank and suppression weapons so you can sink manpower into Fallscrimjagers. Fallscimjagers can kill snipers from behind pretty well and I bet they do pretty good against Guards too. I find that Fallscrimjagers are a little inconsistent and much prefer Obersoldaten but I think the early fuel investment will push you away from them. The MG-34 would also help deal with Guards as their immobility makes them a weak flanker.

You might be able to make other doctrinal infantry work as well. I've heard good praise for G43 Panzerfusiliers but if you're converting out of munitions and probably using smoke rounds so I don't think Breakthrough Tactics will offer much aside from the Sturm Offizer.

I actually think Soviets are in a good position against OKW, probably too good, but I also think that Soviet tier 1 could be a liability against Mechanized Regimental HQ. I just haven't seen enough of either fighting each other to actually say with certainty.

edit:

My strategy in the Alpha against OKW was to combine Tier 1 and Tier 2 for Soviets and just delay until call-in units. M3A1 provides excellent early game pressure. Snipers deal with elite troops like Sturmpioneers, MG-34s, Fallscrimjagers and Obersoldaten. Maxims and Conscripts keep your line flooded with strong infantry that pressures points and keeps everything safe. Finally AT guns and probably Guards hold the line against light armor exceptionally well. OKW doesn't actually get to field anything but light armor and Soviets have really good counters to that if they cater their army properly without even investing in their tanks. This allows them to have a strong early game and a slightly weaker mid-game but roar into the late game with incredible callins like the M4 Sherman (which is still great), the T-34/85 and the freshly buffed IS-2.

^^ Good thinking, only some maps deny OKW's anti-m3a1 strats.

For example Kholodny Ferma/Langres North are damn hard for OKW player. On Langres you can't do shit against snipers unless your opponent makes a mistake, on Kholodny Guards/Cons can get close to the flak 251.

Has anyone mentioned soviet mg spam yet?

I think it's only possible to go T1 and T2 healing and then stop there with a Jagdpanzer IV. The problem is when fighting soviets, T-34s start coming in at that mark and any more delays are GG.

So the early game, it'll revolve around good use of infantry as no light AFVs will be made. i'm still trying to figure it out myself.

And get raped by soviet infantry then, you won't have enought AI firepower too keep the infantry at bay. Shrecks come too late to stop the M3a1 early.

I think it's only possible to go T1 and T2 healing and then stop there with a Jagdpanzer IV. The problem is when fighting soviets, T-34s start coming in at that mark and any more delays are GG.

So the early game, it'll revolve around good use of infantry as no light AFVs will be made. i'm still trying to figure it out myself.

And what if the soviet goes for snipers/maxims with infantry blob into call-ins? You'll bleed way too much MP, but it's very map dependant.

Panzerfusiliers seem to have sniper like vision range.