Why this game is almost balanced

Game is almost balanced if you don't count early OP vehicles like M3's, squad wipe mines, 2 squad snipers and not versatile infantry units

Bullshit. German just spam LMG nobrain into pz 4 and tiger. Balance, where are you?

Maxim spam is far far more effective than MG 42 spam...

MG 42's aren't even very common anymore because the threat of the M3 is too much to risk using them.

Maxim spam is far far more effective than MG 42 spam...

MG 42's aren't even very common anymore because the threat of the M3 is too much to risk using them.

Actually a grouped force of Grens and 1 MG can be absolutely devastating as the MG pins infantry while Grens faust incoming M3's. The M3 cant attack from the front either because will shred that thing pretty quickly.

The strength of M3 is hunting lone out - of - position squads, not grouped up, tight forces.

Combined arms is just as powerful in coh 2 as it was in vCoH... Probably bettter. Pure riflespam was actually more viable than conscript spam because BARs are better than molotovs (I am taking oorah into consideration) and because grens are better than volks.

Going 4 conscript 2 maxim T3 is a very strong build, for example, and something that would have been a really shitty move in vCoH.

The reason there is "spam" in RTS games is because building a new building costs resources, and if you cannot leverage that new building into an entire unit's worth of advantage, it is safer to simply build more of the units you already have available. It's just EASIER. If everyone was better at this game there'd be less mono-unit builds... which by the way I only see from a handful of guys and they only win because people don't know how to deal with the strat.

All ya'll be like

i know most of you don't care
but in 3v3+

m3 is not OP, to much units around
german AT is OP, pak is a beast and tanks are more mobile, do more dmg
(cost is of no importance, plenty of resources)

so yeh at popcap 100, germans have the strongest army

MG 42's aren't even very common anymore because the threat of the M3 is too much to risk using them.

What if I told you I will always get an MG42 against m3 users? You only need enough grens to be able to fausts, ignoring faust grenadiers are far weaker than MG42s or pioneers against M3s.

Conscript hordes and DP guards are scarier than M3s with MG42s.

Maxim spam is far far more effective than MG 42 spam...

MG 42's aren't even very common anymore because the threat of the M3 is too much to risk using them.

I talk about the LMG not the MG 42

What if I told you I will always get an MG42 against m3 users? You only need enough grens to be able to fausts, ignoring faust grenadiers are far weaker than MG42s or pioneers against M3s.

Conscript hordes and DP guards are scarier than M3s with MG42s.

So the counter to M3 spam is MG 42 / Pioneer spam?

That's interesting, haven't heard that one yet.

So the counter to M3 spam is MG 42 / Pioneer spam?

That's interesting, haven't heard that one yet.

No, it's not a counter. They're just relatively a lot higher damage with their basic weapons against m3s because grenadiers don't really benefit from the extra accuracy against vehicles.

You will go T2 fairly quickly or you will die. You will also not get a 222 as your first unit from there, everything else is honestly a better choice.

What if I told you I will always get an MG42 against m3 users? You only need enough grens to be able to fausts, ignoring faust grenadiers are far weaker than MG42s or pioneers against M3s.

Conscript hordes and DP guards are scarier than M3s with MG42s.

I wonder if you ever faced Cata or someone who has enough to micro to prevent faust, and your pios and hmgs do shit vs M3a1s. IMO if the russian player has enough micro you better quit at the beginning unless you have UP osttruppens, paks or tanks. And you can't hunt it down because of mines and guards if have you survived and got a upgunned AC.

Otherwise if you can hold out the soviet player will ALWAYS get enough resources to tech or spam call-ins and overwhelm you or drain you by VPs.
M3a1s are pure OP units in this patch, Ostheer has no hard-counter against them untill T2 (by that time your opponent has Guards or other nasty units).

I wonder if you ever faced Cata or someone who has enough to micro to prevent faust, and your pios and hmgs do shit vs M3a1s. IMO if the russian player has enough micro you better quit at the beginning unless you have UP osttruppens, paks or tanks. And you can't hunt it down because of mines and guards if have you survived and got a upgunned AC.

Otherwise if you can hold out the soviet player will ALWAYS get enough resources to tech or spam call-ins and overwhelm you or drain you by VPs.
M3a1s are pure OP units in this patch, Ostheer has no hard-counter against them untill T2 (by that time your opponent has Guards or other nasty units).

He did faced Cata more then once and defeated him more then once.

Its actually one of the most enjoyable matchups to see on Cata stream as Cruzz is a formidable opponent that always makes up for gg as opposed to countless noob stomps Cata faces.

He did faced Cata more then once and defeated him more then once.

Its actually one of the most enjoyable matchups to see on Cata stream as Cruzz is a formidable opponent that always makes up for gg as opposed to countless noob stomps Cata faces.

Katitof, how often have you managed to defeat this kind of strat? (replays vs similar-skilled playrs pls) Or do you use it yourself and that's why you're refusing to look at the problems it causes in game? I tried to see your playercard but couldn't... Is that because it's all Soviet?

I saw a replay vs Stephenjf recently it's on here). The guy he's playing says "I won't start with an M3 because I don't want to cheese you in our first game".

It's spoiling games. Even some Soviet players know it.

I'll quote Barton, arguably one of the top players:

"Game is almost balanced if you don't count early OP vehicles like M3's, squad wipe mines, 2 squad snipers and not versatile infantry units"


Katitof...

Combined arms is just as powerful in coh 2 as it was in vCoH... Probably bettter. Pure riflespam was actually more viable than conscript spam because BARs are better than molotovs (I am taking oorah into consideration) and because grens are better than volks.

Going 4 conscript 2 maxim T3 is a very strong build, for example, and something that would have been a really shitty move in vCoH.

The reason there is "spam" in RTS games is because building a new building costs resources, and if you cannot leverage that new building into an entire unit's worth of advantage, it is safer to simply build more of the units you already have available. It's just EASIER. If everyone was better at this game there'd be less mono-unit builds... which by the way I only see from a handful of guys and they only win because people don't know how to deal with the strat.

All ya'll be like

lolololololololol

+1

Katitof, how often have you managed to defeat this kind of strat? (replays vs similar-skilled playrs pls) Or do you use it yourself and that's why you're refusing to look at the problems it causes in game? I tried to see your playercard but couldn't... Is that because it's all Soviet?

I saw a replay vs Stephenjf recently it's on here). The guy he's playing says "I won't start with an M3 because I don't want to cheese you in our first game".

It's spoiling games. Even some Soviet players know it.

I'll quote Barton, arguably one of the top players:

"Game is almost balanced if you don't count early OP vehicles like M3's, squad wipe mines, 2 squad snipers and not versatile infantry units"


Katitof...

it's interesting that you use barton's quote to bolster your stance.

but OMGPOP, who is also an arguably one of the best players, said
"Using M3s well can indeed result in some spectacularly swift victories, but for me they are really the best out of a group of bad options.

It all comes down to the fact that Germans have a much stronger infantry composition than the Soviets. MP for MP, LMG Grenadiers will thrash conscripts (you don't even need LMG for this fight) and beat DP guards by a moderate margin. MG42 and Pak40 are miles and miles ahead of the Maxim and ZIS-3 gun. 251 Half Track is available early in the game, as battle goes on and squads lose men, damage exchange steadily favor the Germans as they can reinforce on the field."

and

" But it's far from a free win for any player who employ this strategy. Out of the 5 top players I competed and practiced with, Barton and DanielD both defeated this strategy. 60% win rate isn't all that impressive, especially against my German win % and the fact that this strat is the best I can manage with the Soviets."

btw, yes i do think m3 is a bit too good and a headache when i see it. just funny how it seems as though you only take in what supports your opinion and just ignore the others taht do not.

it's interesting that you use barton's quote to bolster your stance.

but OMGPOP, who is also an arguably one of the best players, said
"Using M3s well can indeed result in some spectacularly swift victories, but for me they are really the best out of a group of bad options.

It all comes down to the fact that Germans have a much stronger infantry composition than the Soviets. MP for MP, LMG Grenadiers will thrash conscripts (you don't even need LMG for this fight) and beat DP guards by a moderate margin. MG42 and Pak40 are miles and miles ahead of the Maxim and ZIS-3 gun. 251 Half Track is available early in the game, as battle goes on and squads lose men, damage exchange steadily favor the Germans as they can reinforce on the field."

and

" But it's far from a free win for any player who employ this strategy. Out of the 5 top players I competed and practiced with, Barton and DanielD both defeated this strategy. 60% win rate isn't all that impressive, especially against my German win % and the fact that this strat is the best I can manage with the Soviets."

btw, yes i do think m3 is a bit too good and a headache when i see it. just funny how it seems as though you only take in what supports your opinion and just ignore the others taht do not.

But then u ignored vonivan and vindicarex who are also top players .

if the soviet goes T1 for cars etc then you should just rush T2 then see how balanced the game becomes....

all I am saying is that there are so many variable approaches to playing the game, I can't see it ever being more 'balanced'.

realistically all that can be done is being done, kinda.

Like Cruzz said, MG42 is actually a good choice vs M3s. A lot of the "top" players don't use them, but two 42s makes it impossible for the M3 to flank or sit at max range, since one burst from the MG forces off the scout car. You still have to get 3-4 grens for faust so you don't die to 3-4 scout cars ofc.

Katitof, how often have you managed to defeat this kind of strat? (replays vs similar-skilled playrs pls) Or do you use it yourself and that's why you're refusing to look at the problems it causes in game? I tried to see your playercard but couldn't... Is that because it's all Soviet?

I saw a replay vs Stephenjf recently it's on here). The guy he's playing says "I won't start with an M3 because I don't want to cheese you in our first game".

It's spoiling games. Even some Soviet players know it.

I'll quote Barton, arguably one of the top players:

"Game is almost balanced if you don't count early OP vehicles like M3's, squad wipe mines, 2 squad snipers and not versatile infantry units"


Katitof...

You must have missed where he defended the Soviet spam strategies, saying something to the effect of "that's how they are designed" (in other words, deal with it), but then complained about the spam in vCoH. He's no different than anybody else who defends their favorite faction, where nothing is wrong except this, this, and this are UP and need buffing.

Let's face it. Spam is widely accepted by the majority to not be fun, whether that be using such strategies or playing against. This goes for the Ostheer, Soviets, and now the OKW and Americans. There's a difference between not having to rely as much on combined arms, and outright spam. I do not seek mirrored factions. I seek fun, fair, competitive play.

This cannot be achieved when both sides have useless, unused units, for one reason or another. The sniper play is imbalanced, so getting the German sniper is way too risky and not really worth it. Especially considering in the current meta, the Soviets field so much infantry that I'd just rather get another Grenadier squad or two. For the Soviets, the SU-76 and T-70 see hardly any action. Fixing these units (as well as a few more, Panzergrenadiers, 222, etc.) might be a good way of promoting combined arms play.

I use MG-42s against M3s, but they have to be supported by Grenadiers. Also, it doesn't provide the best results. If anything it feels like a temporary attempt at salvaging the situation and praying you can hold out, rather than a counter.